Tea Krulos explores hidden subcultures in American society

LP: I'm super excited to talk with you. Just to set the table a little bit, I read two of your books. I read Heroes in the Night, and I just finished American Madness. There's a lot of pinballing around for me. From what I can gather from reading your background, I'm a few years older than you, but I definitely grew up in an era of a lot of these topics. They were floating around in the '70s and '80s in popular television; things like In Search Of and UFOs were a big thing. And it wasn't until a bit later that some of the more, what I would call the intersection of like religion and politics stuff emerge, more the late eighties into the nineties and then certainly accelerated over the last 30 years.

But with all that said, I wanted to understand a little bit about if the common sort of thread through a lot of your writing is this focus on subcultures. And what I would broadly call outsiders misunderstood it, however you want to characterize it. And with an overlay of the Fortean and the paranormal, what's your entryway? What's your on-ramp to all that?

Tea Krulos: Oh, it really comes from my childhood. It's so funny because when I think back about what I used to love to read as a kid, I loved to read superhero comic books. That's one of the first things that I read because I could figure out what was going on with the pictures and then translate it into the words. And I also really love to read adventure and mystery fiction. And any book I could find on ghost stories, Bigfoot, UFOs, stuff like that. It was all very fascinating to me as a kid, and little did I know this was very early research into what I would later write about. So, I've always been fascinated by things that are mysterious and unusual, and that really draws me in every time.

And then, when I became a teenager, I was in the punk rock subculture, and I had friends who were goths and metalheads, skaters, stuff like that. I very much loved youthful subcultures when I was a teen. Those all melded together, and I developed an interest in journalism and writing as well. It all came together.

LP: I had a very similar experience growing up in terms of, as a younger person, like as a pre-adolescent, even going to the library at school or going to the public library. And I've tried to piece it together and unpack it, but I really, it's either lost to memory or the depths of psychology or whatever, but I try to understand what was it that would cause me to enter the library and find the weird stuff. You know what I mean? It's because you know how it is like that stuff. You have to look for it. Yeah. And I've really tried to understand that over the years. I can't find the origin story clearly for me. Do you know what it was about for you? Was it escapism? Was it? Have you ever reflected on the why behind that?

Tea Krulos: I was lucky in that my father had a strong interest in science fiction, especially in monster movies. He has a lot of fond memories of fifties culture in general. So he introduced me to a lot of that when I was very young. And this is why I love librarians so much. I remember when I was a kid, there was a very helpful librarian who knew I had an interest in weird stuff. She would guide me in that direction. I was lucky to have adults in my life who were not like, Oh, that's weird. Don't go there. They were like, Oh, that's your thing. So here, let me help you find stuff that you're interested in.

LP: When you were younger, did you have any adults in your life who were also interested in magical thinking who were into more of the reality of some of these topics?

Tea Krulos: I don't think so, actually. I didn't find very like-minded people until I became a teenager. Like I said, I was hanging with a subculture crowd, and a lot of them had an interest in paranormal stuff conspiracy stuff. That was the first time I was able to talk to like-minded people on the same level.

LP: It's really interesting to think back about the time frame of What I'm going to guess would have been like your adolescence into young adulthood. It was like a golden era for a lot of these topics being in underground media, bubbling up into mainstream media; things like The X-Files or so many of the seminal books were the touchstone books of a lot of these subcultures came out in that era. So, I'm sure there was no shortage of immersion topics. (laughter)

Tea Krulos: Yeah, The X-Files is a great thing to mention because I had an interest before that, but I was, like, at the very right age to be able to really watch and enjoy The X-Files. It was very popular, and it made me interested to read books about UFOs and introduced conspiracy a little bit, even though this is a much friendlier version of what I would discover later on. Yeah, it was the right time. I was really absorbing a lot of this late 80s through the early 90s.

LP: I want to come back a little later in our conversation about how you've seen the subcultures change over the last 25 years or so, and the tone of them and the menace that exists now, maybe in a way that didn't before. But before we get there, I wanted to talk about just a few of the recurring elements or styles or themes that you cover and what your interests are. So we talked a little bit about subcultures of outsiders or, not even to go that far, to say subcultures in general, people that have, that gravitate around interests and build a lifestyle around it.

Another thing that is glaring in your work is that you don't make fun of your topics. You can have a little fun with it, but it never feels more than acknowledging the obvious, if you will, like you don't go at your topics or the people you're talking to. 

And so that empathy, I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that because I'm sure, as you know, in this literature, There's a spectrum of how people deal with the people they're talking to and the cultures they're investigating. How did you choose to have that line and not be mocking? 

Tea Krulos: Part of it stems from the fact that, like I said, I was part of the punk rock subculture, and I felt like I was an outsider and that people didn't understand me. I get that perspective of being someone who is seen as unusual and is still a person who wants to be talked to respectfully.

I'll also tell you, I don't think I've ever really told the story, but when I was in my early twenties, I was starting to write, and there's a short-lived publication, and an editor assigned me to write about a UFO meetup group. I went to their meeting, and I didn't tell them that I was a writer.

And then I wrote this piece, and it was pretty snarky and rude about this group. I made fun of some outlandish beliefs, I think. So, I wrote this, and my editor encouraged me to have that tone. The piece got published, and I read it, and I felt like total crap. I was like, "Who are you to make fun of these people? Why is your opinion better than theirs? And people consider you to be unusual." I was very unhappy with it. And that was really a turning point for me where I was like, "You're going to move forward, and you're going to be respectful about your subject matter." I certainly don't need to agree with them on everything that they think, but you have to give them the benefit of the doubt and be a respectful writer and person.

I've always kept that in mind, and even if someone is a little bit ridiculous, I'd rather present their story and let people make that decision for themselves. Some people, for example, in my book Heroes In The Night, read about real-life superheroes, and some probably laughed their way through the whole book. Some People probably read it and felt very inspired. That's really the reader's decision. 

LP: It's funny because it's clear at times that you're wrestling with trying to hold an integrity while you're doing this. And you disclose it in the narrative. You'll talk about, "I could have been more honest," or "I had to decide if I was going to be honest." That context is really helpful to hear as a reader.

Tea Krulos: Yeah, it helps if people understand that you're a writer and you're also a person, so you sometimes have to balance your own emotions and figure out your motivation. I never want the story to be about me, but there are some key points where it is helpful to let the readers know what's going on behind the scenes.

LP: And there are definitely times when you're not afraid to be a participant in that new journalism style. And there are moments where you disclose that as well. And there are moments where, as a reader, it's like, Oh, this is uncomfortable. (laughter) I really like those moments. It's, I like that feeling that you get when you read something like that.

But that immersion that you take with your subjects and your subject matter, both in the research you have to do, and you talk about that a lot, certainly in the McCaslin book, like you had to read a lot of things that probably you can't get out of your head after you first read them. And hear things that you don't want to hear. How does that boil down in terms of objectivity? And is that even a desired state for you, or, yeah, how do you think about that?

Tea Krulos: I try to be objective if I can, but the reality is it's so hard to have that, especially in this day and age. It's hard to have an objective look. I certainly try to, but writers are people who have opinions on stuff, too, so it is hard to balance it all sometimes.

LP: I came across your work because I moved to Seattle from New York about seven years ago. And when I first got here, two things intersected for me. One was my oldest son and I watched the movie Kick Ass, which by the way, I mean, come on, it's so great.

At the same time, I learned about Phoenix Jones, who is a Seattle real-life superhero. I couldn't get that out of my head like I hadn't been familiar with the topic of real-life superheroes before. Although I had a lifelong interest in a lot of the other topics you explored, I couldn't get the real-life superhero thing out of my head.

And so I came up with an idea of a way I wanted to get into it and explore it and learn about these people. And as I started to do that initial work, I came across your book. First of all, your book saved me from going down a rabbit hole that I probably wouldn't have been as successful with because I couldn't devote the time and energy in the manner you did.

But it also made the other idea completely. Unnecessary. It really is like the, it's, unless you're going to do like an academic, psychological look at these people, it's the definitive story. But the thing that did captivate me about that topic was trying to understand the psychology of it.

Who does this? I don't mean that in a judgmental way, but in an understanding way. It's such a fascinating hobby, pursuit, or interest to take the step to do it. Yeah. That leap from cosplay to going out on the street and, like, "Now I'm going to do a patrol." It's heavy. It's really heavy. It's easy to laugh at and dismiss, but it's not trivial.

Tea Krulos: No, it's wild. It's frightening. Sometimes, there's a good range that I found. I met some real-life superheroes, or RLSH, as they say in brief, that had a very tame, accessible approach, right? They love superheroes. They want to do something good. They're a colorful advocate of doing good deeds or charity.

And then some were definitely almost like they had a death wish. The line between reality and fantasy is very blurred for them, and they actually want to go out and fight crime, which is never like it is in the comic books. Often, in the circumstances where it has unfolded, it's been a confusing mess, a danger to themselves and sometimes other people.

There's a variety of approaches and personality types that are engaged with this. It differs a lot from person to person. A lot of times, people have been like, "Real-life superheroes, tell me what it's all about in one sentence." And I can't really do that because it varies quite a bit.

LP: Yeah. The book conveys that there is no singular motivation or singular personality type that does it. There may be classifications or groups of people or categories, but there's definitely a spectrum.

Tea Krulos: And it has a lot to do with over the last, what has it been now, 20 years? Superheroes are such a part of our pop culture. They've adapted practically every superhero ever made into a movie or a TV show, and they're just everywhere. It's just that it really influences people that this is part of our culture, and I can be part of that by becoming a superhero myself. Then I'll be someone big and famous.

LP: It's interesting too that you mentioned, and you talk about in the book, a lot of the patrols, nothing happens. It's mundane. No purse snatcher or man is lurking in the shadows, and I don't know how much interaction or relationships you have with law enforcement people, but my dad was a cop, and I grew up around cops, and it's the same thing.

Most of their job, they're doing a whole lot. Even when we're in a high crime period, when people say crime's rampant, it's not really so — not in America, not in the late 20th or early 21st century. It goes up and down in a very narrow band, and it's typically isolated by geography and sub-geographies. But yeah, it's interesting.

Tea Krulos: And the other thing is, I remember I had someone online on Facebook or something, and they were all mad because their friend had gotten mugged or something here in Milwaukee. And they're like, where were the real-life superheroes? I'm like, "Well, they're not omnipresent. They're not everywhere." The chance that they would encounter that particular crime happening in the city is so remote because I went out on patrol with them. We would go and patrol a neighborhood that had crime problems, and we wouldn't see anything. And then the next morning, I'd be like, "Oh yeah, there was a mugging." It just happened to be ten blocks that way, an hour after the patrol ended. It's like a needle in the haystack.

LP: I remember there was the study where, I think it was liquor stores or bodegas or something like that, where they put a cardboard cutout of a cop or a security officer in there, and crime goes down. It seems very similar to who's going to commit, first of all, if there are witnesses around at all, but who's going to commit a crime in the vicinity of two or three or four costumed people? At the very least, they're witnesses. At most, they're incredibly complicated. You're not going to mess around. (laughter)

Tea Krulos: That is something that I talked to the real-life superheroes about and speculated. They're like, oh, it's a slow patrol. Nothing happened. I'm like, maybe it was slow because they saw you marching down the street, and they're like, whatever this is. I'm out of here. I'm going to try a different neighborhood. Maybe not stopping crime, but deflecting it a little bit. It's possible. It's hard. It's hard to tell.

LP: It really is. I read Heroes in the Night. I read American Madness. I did not get to Monster Hunters and Apocalypse Any Day Now. But I still feel equipped enough to talk about those topics. But with all that said, can you talk about the Venn diagram of people in those worlds?

Tea Krulos: It was great because American Madness was the fourth of those books, and it feels like that drew a little bit from the first three books. Heroes in the Night, certainly the main subject, Richard McCaslin identified with that movement although he wasn't especially an active part of it. Apocalypse Any Day Now dealt with different people's ideas on how the world might end. So, some of those ideas were religious or from the perspective of climate disasters. But there is definitely an overlap of conspiracy theory in that realm as well. A lot of people are preppers because they believe the government's going to be rounding up people and sending them to FEMA camps in the near future and stuff like that.

Monster Hunters deals with the paranormal, which, again, like some of those circles and UFO research and other aspects, intersect with conspiracy theory as well, or even end times theories, an alien invasion that's going to change the world as we know it. All of those books straddle the line a little bit about people with one foot in reality and one foot in kind of fantasy of this thing may or may not exist, right? The world might end, but I don't know. There's a little bit of fantasy to that, I think.

LP: Yeah. Although after this summer, I'm not so sure. The fantasy gets closer to reality. (nervous laughter) 

One thing that I have found difficult to discern, and it's by design, is your take on a lot of this. I don't want to pin you down and ask what you believe, but I'm interested in your cosmology around some of these topics. Do you like to think about and explore and take seriously the UFO problem or cryptozoology? Are any of these things that you either … ? I don't want to say give credence to, but I think you know what I'm asking.

Is any of this a personal area of interest and an actual study of the phenomenon as opposed to the people around the phenomenon?

Tea Krulos: I would describe myself as being very curious. I like to think open-minded, but I have that journalist streak where I'm like, okay, Where is the evidence? Show me something definitive that I can reference. I always love to hear about these topics. 

Let's say something like Bigfoot. Does Bigfoot exist? I can't really say definitively that it does. I've seen some very interesting things that could be or could not be. I'm open to the subject, but I don't necessarily believe it. But I'm also not like a very hardcore debunker where I'm like, no, no way, absolutely not. That's my attitude towards a lot of things. I am very interested and love to hear about it, but I am not entirely sold on the whole thing.

LP: Be like, "maybe."

Tea Krulos: Yeah. And I know it's a weak position to have sometimes, but... I can't definitively say either way, but maybe that'll change.

LP: I don't know if that is a weak position because one of my favorite thinkers is Robert Anton Wilson. He used to always speak against the idea of belief in anything and being too certain about anything, and usually, the people that are the most certain end up being the most dogmatic around their certainty and pretty much everything. There's a "maybe" until proven, which means there's a "maybe not" until proven. It could be a reliance on the scientific method, a fetishization of that, or a high regard for it. Where people who are the observers of the subject get caught up or tripped up is that there's seemingly evidence everywhere. We just can't see it. (laughter)

And something that's been very, that's also very interesting about your approach is, and I'm wondering if you're familiar with this phenomenon. Still, a lot of people try to study some of these topics, and to me the most famous example I use is the JFK assassination. When you start to unpack it and get into these things, the rabbit hole becomes very consuming very quickly. And even if you consider yourself a pretty rational person, you're like, that is weird. Or like, why did all the, why did everybody die? Or like, why did such and such, how did so and so get connected to this other person? And it can become, for lack of a better way to say it, a mindfuck pretty quickly. For some of these topics, what tools did you have to develop? Or was it just your temperament that kept you from, like, how did you inoculate against the mindfuck?

Tea Krulos: One good thing was I knew that's what I was going into. I was like, "I know this is going to really gonna suck me in," especially writing American Madness. That was some intense stuff at times. I've been fooled by stuff, and I've definitely changed my opinion on different topics. Yeah, it is a struggle. There were definitely times when I was falling down the rabbit hole and had gotten in too deep. I think after Apocalypse Any Day Now and American Madness, I was like, I need to cleanse the palate by reading Hello Kitty comics for a month or something. Try to get your mind out of that world because I can see how people get sucked into it and how it can consume their lives, and it becomes a very dark place. It's dangerous.

LP: Where I keep coming back to is that, yes, I believe people are responsible for how they behave. Yes, we have responsibilities as citizens, etc. But there's a predatory nature about so much of this. And it's a merciless, predatory nature. 

You talked a bit about Alex Jones in your book quite a bit. And there were a couple of interviews I heard leading up to our talk that have really stuck with me. And I pulled some things I wanted to ask you about.

Naomi Klein is making the rounds of every podcast I listen to talking about her new book, The Doppelganger. A lot of it has to do with the world of conspiracy and the paranoia and overlap between religion and politics in our country. She has a great line in one of the interviews — and I'm going to paraphrase — that she wishes in her book, she didn't use the words conspiracy theory because they're, they don't really have any theories. They say shit. There's no theory there behind it. It's almost a nihilism. She thinks of them as conspiracy influencers. I think, given what we were starting to talk about, they could even be conspiracy predators.

So clearly, there's a class of people who it's just about money and attention and prestige. But there's this weird in-between area where it's like anything else in media. There are superstars, and there's everybody else. There's not a lot of people making a lot of money off peddling conspiracy. Maybe I don't understand the economics of independent publishing. Maybe it is a good enough lifestyle business. Or perhaps the problem's bigger than I think. But one of the other things she said that I found really powerful because I was reading your book at the time was that conspiracy theories seem like they're anti-establishment. Still, they serve the establishment really well because they put off when the problem is the UFOs are going to come, and there's going to be an invasion, or they're going to get our guns, or whatever the boogeyman is.

And it takes people's eyes off the very real problems of right now, the creeping fascism and the extreme capitalism, all the real social ills that, and the cultural sickness we're facing right now. That really stuck with me, that notion. 

And before I ask you questions about that, the other strand that came to me was this guy, Jeff Sharlet, whose work I wasn't familiar with. And he's got a book out right now called The Undertow. For about 20 years, he's been writing on this intersection of American politics and religion. He goes and immerses himself in the megachurches, the Christian right, and the gun enthusiasts. And something he said is that in the last ten years, especially, it's gotten more dangerous for him in a very real way. So you could go to these places, and maybe there'd be a big picnic or a barbecue, and they'd invite you in. And a lot of the experiences I read, people would just all of a sudden start talking this stuff as though because you were there, you were on the team, and there was almost like an inability to read social cues. They start telling you this stuff. Whereas Jeff said now he goes, and he shows up, and they're like, what are you doing here? You don't belong here. You don't look like one of us. And it's much more, and everybody's excited about the upcoming civil war. That was one of his points. It's like they all, five minutes into the conversation, it gets to the civil war is coming, and they're excited and ready.

Have you felt an evolution, either in your work or as an observer — have you seen it go from this subculture of fringe people who had their little universe to something different and darker and maybe less containable?

Tea Krulos: Yeah, for sure. The first thing is you're right in that people used to be kinder conspiracy theorists. There was this golden age where people did have a theory, and as you say, with JFK, They'd be able to show you how they came up with this theory, and a lot of times, whether it's true or not, I don't know, but it made sense. It followed this…

LP: It had like an internal logic?

Tea Krulos: Yeah. And you could see where they had scraps of information; the same thing with a lot of UFO stuff. And that did evolve into people just coming up with a theory that felt good in their gut, and then they would create reptilian aliens. I've never seen any good working theory on that. There are no scraps of evidence, really. There could be a video where someone's eyes look blurry because the studio lights are changing.

But I'm like, where did you get this from? I just pulled it out of the air. And I definitely saw it evolve into becoming more cult-like and more dangerous throughout the process of writing American Madness and, in the aftermath, after the book got published, too.

I really got introduced to this world in 2010 when I met Richard McCaslin for the first time. He had contacted me, and I was like, "Wow, this guy must be the fringe of the fringe like his ideas are so out there." And then I discovered there's actually a lot of people who thought the same way as him. But I definitely saw that intensify as the years went on. And it was really shocking. And at this point, there are now people who are members of Congress whose ideas are close to Richard McCaslin. I'm like, this is the same type of stuff that he would tell me. And it's mainstream now. It's definitely its own political force.

LP: Before I comment on that, what I would like to ask you then is to extrapolate from that. There are people in the halls of Congress. There are people, not even mid-level people; there were very senior people in the previous administration. Let's put Trump aside because I really don't think he believes anything. I think he's such an opportunist and grifter that there's no belief there. Just whatever is useful at the moment. Michael Flynn would be exhibit A, and then it's just, there's plenty of others from there.

Tea Krulos: A point I want to make too is, that's like looking at, wow, people in this kind of big position of power being in Congress or being in the presidential cabinet. But equally as concerning, I think, is that people with these thoughts are now on your local school board, deciding what your kids can and can't read, making decisions that affect your community. It's easy to laugh off the conspiracy, like, "Oh, haha, this person believes the world is flat or something," but it should be concerning because those people are networking. They're running for office and trying to gain control of decisions that affect you and your community directly.

LP: Something that's really striking to me about the situation overall is that no one is able to articulate an antidote. And you point out something really well in American Madness. Again, it resonated for me because, in a different way, in the Jeff Sharlet interview I heard, he said something similar, which was you can't have a conversation and convince someone. And he said he used to try to do that. He would go to somebody and try to say, "But look at this information. They've never come for your guns," or whatever the topic was. And then he said, what I had to realize was I do the same thing. I can't be convinced either. I can't be convinced to stop being a secular humanist, a progressive liberal, or a budding leftist. What makes me think I could change them from their worldview?

And you articulated it even a little bit more expansively in terms of seeing how these people react when confronted with the sort of shortcomings or when prophecy didn't come to pass, whatever it was, like, no fact and evidence could help these folks change their mind. There's no antidote; truth isn't an antidote, fact isn't an antidote, and I don't like to be pessimistic. I don't want to be nihilistic, but I have a hard time seeing the other side. Like, how do we see through to the other side? Like, how do we move forward? What does it look like in five years? Going into this presidential cycle with the deepfake problem is befuddling in a way that I never would have thought.

Tea Krulos: Yeah, I'm afraid that next year is going to be a big year for conspiracy theories. It's going to be off the hook. Yeah, it's a very frustrating thing because if someone believes the world is flat, how can you even make an argument with that person? Because you can show them anything. You can show them photos from Hubble and outer space and all sorts of things, and they're just going to tell you it's fake. Any paperwork, photo, or video can be dismissed as just being fake. It's tough. The one piece of advice someone said is, first of all, you should try to talk to them. You don't need to get sucked in and try to agree with them.

But it is worth having conversations with some people. And a tip that I got was one thing you can do is ask them to explain their theory and how they got there. And sometimes, by talking about it and saying it out loud, they begin to realize in real time that it doesn't really make sense.

And you don't need to argue with them at this, be like, "Do you think that's a good source of information? Where'd this come from? Do you have a link?" And stuff like that. I really hope, and I know there are efforts already. Schools need to have media literacy courses so people at a young age can start to realize that this is a problem and look at examples of what is credible news and what isn't because it's only going to get worse.

Like you said, the deepfake technology is improving at a very remarkable rate, and there has been some pushback now against conspiracy sites, with platforms like YouTube trying to crack down on it, but it's very hard to do. You push it down one place, and it pops up in another. It's definitely a fight, and it's going to be a tough one.

LP: When does it go from being entertaining to cultural commentary and criticism?

Tea Krulos: When I first started on the book in 2010, I was like, "Oh, this guy, he's into conspiracies, and this guy goes back to The X-Files." I like that show. There were these characters on the show called the Lone Gunmen, and they were depicted as being these kind of quirky, weird guys, but they were also smart, and they knew how to tie things together. And a lot of times, they were completely wrong. 

I had this kind of charming vision of conspiracy, and I was interested in UFOs. But after I started talking to Richard, I had not heard of Alex Jones at that point. Then I saw that there was this very dark and destructive side to it. And that has done lots of damage to people's lives. Richard McCaslin's life was destroyed by conspiracy theory. It does have a very negative impact on a lot of people to this day, and it is very much culturally motivated. That was something that switched, I think, with people like Alex Jones, is they want to channel conspiracy to help their hatred of certain political forces and institutions. That's a very good weapon to use, and certainly, the last administration knew that it was a good weapon in their toolbox.

LP: Is there a seminal biography of him yet that explains him? Because clearly, I have a sense that there's a book or a story to be told about him. How he got how he is probably makes total sense.

Tea Krulos: Alex Jones? I pieced it together through different stuff. Rolling Stone wrote a pretty good article that talked about his early life. John Ronson wrote a book called Them. He wrote the book in 2000, so he was capturing Alex Jones as he was beginning his rise right around then. So those are two good sources of information on him early on. I'm sure there'll be more to be said about him, especially because he's been in the news a lot over the last couple of years with all those lawsuits finally. He's gotten a billion dollars in fines related to his Sandy Hook lawsuits.

It's quite a story, and he's made so much money from peddling these conspiracy theories with his bogus supplements and other products.

LP: It was interesting to go back to the interview I heard with Naomi Klein. She was talking about the supplements racket and how, even with Joe Rogan, a lot of the right-leaning and far-right people are in that body health business. She was like, "That's because the fascists are obsessed with the pure body." The purity of whether it's your blood or your health is a very recognizable part of the far-right playbook.

Tea Krulos: It's also kind of an American thing. Take the snake oil. Yes, you'll be really strong, and all of your hair will grow back.

LP: I don't have to do the hard work; I can just get the result.

[Tea Krulos: Right, yeah, exactly.

LP: You mentioned earlier about palate cleansing. To the extent that you've got some thoughts that you're willing to share, what's next for you? A lot of times when these topics grab somebody, it's hard to leave alone because it's so interesting, but what's your journey taking you next? Do you know yet?

Tea Krulos: I have two or three different book ideas that I'm developing now. I have yet to sell the books or anything. But I'm slowly developing, and they'll all happen, but it's just a matter of what order they're going to happen in. And in the meantime, I've been doing a lot of freelance writing. I write locally here for Milwaukee magazine. I've written a few pieces now for Atlas Obscura, which has been fun. So, I've been freelancing a lot of articles to develop some book ideas. Which, these book ideas are going to be less intense a ride, but they still do venture into the world of the paranormal and unusual subcultures.

LP: Something that I've enjoyed watching as I was prepping for our interview is I'd love the focus of some of your work on your local and regional stories because that's something that's always been interesting to me. I've not moved around a ton in my life, but whenever I do, I like to read about where I live. Whether it's the actual building or the neighborhood or the street or the town, whatever it is, it's just fun to connect that way for me. I love the bizarre stories, and they're all over America, whether it's local ghost stories or the local cryptoid or… (laughter) You know? And it's like this endless Americana well.

Tea Krulos: I love local stories too because sometimes you're like, I did not even know this about my backyard, and there's something really interesting that I had no idea. You think you know everything about the region that you live in, but you'd be surprised.

LP: Oh, I have a quick question. Because I didn't read the book, I'm sorry, but where did you arrive with Mothman? (laughter) I love Mothman!

Tea Krulos: Yeah, I do too. It's really an American monster icon. I got interested in this because there was a wave of Mothman sightings in Chicago. I live in Milwaukee, which is just about an hour and a half north of Chicago, so I don't go there all the time, but I've certainly been there several times, and I was like, "Wow, this is kind of my backyard." I'm interested. But as these cases started to unroll, It became obvious that a lot of them were being written by the same person who was sending these in anonymously to websites that are really eager for paranormal news. So, like, "Wow, another Mothman sighting." Being a writer, one thing I noticed is that the pacing in some of the word usage of these reports is very similar to each other. I think this is someone who is just trolling and doing it for a cheap thrill or whatever motivation. I do know that some people saw something. A problem was everything was getting lumped in as a mothman, right? Someone said they saw something that looked like a pterodactyl. Okay, Mothman. Another person saw a humanoid figure, and that was a Mothman too. Some people, I think, genuinely had something happen, and they actually did talk about it, but a large number of these reports, we have no idea who wrote them, there's no name, there's no contact information, a lot of it is just a hoax, I think.

LP: Yeah, if you wanted to be a thrill seeker or if you wanted to culture-jam your local media. And if you wanted to evade smart analysis from someone like you, you'd need a few people writing.

Tea Krulos: And this really ties into the conspiracy thing. People are sharing this news, but it's not legitimate. It's something created on the internet, and you can't believe everything that you read on the internet.

LP: Listen, in the last 72 hours, I got tricked by one. I don't know if you were reading the news, but there were the UAP hearings in Mexico. And they had bodies. They had (in air quotes) alien bodies. And I was like, what the hell is this? And looking at the pictures and then the story, I'm like, "Whoa, this is mind-blowing." And then you look, and it's, oh, it's not cited anywhere. That's not some weird website you've never heard of. And then it turns out what I read today was that the guy who presented the (in air quotes) evidence is like some known hoaxer.

Yeah. And somehow, this hoaxer got into the hearing and was presented as credible, and it's like, "Ah, another day, another 10 pounds of bullshit." (laughter)

Tea Krulos: Yeah. I get fooled on the internet, too. There's some site, and they always drive me crazy because it has some superhero movie news, and it'll look like this movie is actually going to happen, but if you actually click on the article and read it, they're like, "This is rumored."

LP: Or, "Sources say."

Tea Krulos: Or someone thought it could be a good movie, but there's like very little to it. It's just clickbait.

LP: It's incredible, isn't it? I'm no PhD, but I feel moderately well equipped to navigate it. I feel so awful for either my fellow citizens or people who just, it's just, it's tough, man. It's really tough. 

So what can we say to go out on a high note? (laughter) Tell me something good!

Tea Krulos: Something that I have encountered, and this has been a little bit more for freelancing and stuff, there are a lot of people who do a lot of good in the world. And it's important to stop and reflect on that and appreciate it. Some people are trying to make the world a better place. There are people who are trying to fight against disinformation and the harm that it does. That's encouraging to see.

LP: Okay. I'll take it. I'll take it.

Thank you so much for making time to do this. I've really enjoyed talking to you. I've enjoyed your work. I really enjoy the sort of empathy and compassion that comes through it all. So thank you.

Tea Krulos: Thank you. I appreciate it.