Ronnie Schneider

Ronnie Schneider: So how are you meanwhile?

Lawrence Peryer:  I’m doing well, I’m doing well. How about you, are you and yours OK in this crazy American drama?

RS:                        Well not liking people that much this is fine for me. I actually love it. the only difference for me is not being able to walk into the stores and do all the things I usually do. But otherwise I have no problem. OK.

LP:                        It’s funny to realize how much social and emotional isolation we’ve had. What’s that there?

RS:                        Wait hold it. You ever see that picture?

LP:                        Oh amazing. No I don’t think I have.

RS:                        Beatles. Before the Stones picture.

LP:                        Get out of town.

RS:                        It was slated works for the Beatles. Now Chip went to the artist and said, “Listen, you know this is obviously screwed up. You should be getting the acclaim for all of this.” And he said he didn’t care. He didn’t want to be involved with all of the thing that’s going on. So at the end after talking to him and all that Chip let it go, and I let it go. But I always sit there and say, “If you see it,” I’ll send you the image later.

                              But it’s from the, I forget which one, I don't know. It’s one of the Beatles songs, but that’s all I can tell you.

LP:                        That’s really incredible, isn’t it?

RS:                        Yeah. No, it really is, but it’s also typical. Look I have a little loyalty to the Stones, I was with them seven years. But I was there during all the competition with the Beatles, the Satanic Majesties cover, you know, come on. So all these things tie in. I thought it was quite interesting at the time. But remember the Beatles gave them their first song, any how they got listed.

LP:                        So first of all, thank you for making time. The package arrived Saturday when I got back from vacation with the book. And I spent as much time as I could between Saturday and this morning trying to cram. But I only got to, actually right where I got to in the book is when you and Allen parted ways. When he gave you my birthday or today choice?

                              What I’d like to do is, I want to, and of course I will during the introduction that I record, encourage people to read the book and tell them where they can get it. So I don’t want to go through everything that’s in the book. But I would love to go through a little bit of your story to set some context if that’s OK?

RS:                        No problem.

LP:                        So where are you from? Where did you grow up?

RS:                        I grew up in Miami. I was born in New Ark, New Jersey. Born in New Ark, and when I was about two we moved down to Florida, and then moved around. But it was grew up mainly in Florida, which I think is a great thing.

LP:                        Yeah, it’s the reverse for, usually the New York Jews retire in Miami, they don’t.

RS:                        Just wait, I’ve still got time.

LP:                        That’s amazing. And so in your book you said you went to University of Miami?

RS:                        Yes, like I said I grew up. I did most of my schooling in Florida. I went to the University of Miami, and during the last two years during the summers I went up to New York to work with my uncle Allen [Klein].

LP:                        And one thing that wasn’t clear to me from reading the book was on, one thing that was clear was that you were enamored of the entertainment part of the entertainment industry? So you talked about going to see Bobby Vinton, and watching how your uncle helped him build the show and create the show. But I wonder were you a music fan, or where you a fan of the whole thing?

RS:                        Well I was neve enamored of any of it. I was never a music [unintelligible 00:04:47]. The only think I like music for was dancing and making out. And to me it was all the memories. It was like those significant moments. It was like finally when I left in ’65, the last song I was dancing to before I went to New York was Satisfaction. Having no idea who the Stones were. Movies I had no idea who distributors were, I didn’t care about any of that stuff.

                              I basically was good at numbers, I wanted to survive, and so I was going towards becoming an accountant. Figuring that if I work with numbers and cash it would rub off. I would be able to get some. At least you were there at the source. So that’s what I was originally doing having no idea about entertainment, didn’t know what Allen did. At the time I was being pursued by one of the bit accounting companies to be an auditor. And they were going to travel me all over the world. So that’s basically what I was looking at. No idea about entertainment. Didn’t care.

LP:                        Yeah. And so Allen was at that point just getting in to artist management? I don’t want to make this too much about him, but could you set me a little context for like where he was at in his career and how he got started in music?

RS:                        When I went up in ’65 he had Bobby Vinton already. And he had just gotten, I’m sorry ’65, I went up originally in ’63 and ’64. Bottom line is when I was first up there, he was working with Bobby Vinton. Then he got Sam Cook, and he was really into management at that time. Before then he was just doing audits and record company things like that. But he got into negotiating the deals for Vinton and Sam, and he did a great job. He was hardcore. And that’s why the artists loved him at the beginning, he made them a lot of money that they usually didn’t get. And he really loved Sam.

                              And that also at the time, black, as we’re doing with all the Black Lives Matter, he was on top of it before then. Allen wasn’t a racist, and made sure that they didn’t take advantage of the black acts if they were on his side.

LP:                        Yeah. And he was trained as an accountant?

RS:                        Yes, he was an accountant. He lived in New York. I think uptown New York. I think 181^st Street, Cabrini Boulevard. I remember the first place we visit him. Yes, so he started out as an accountant and I just went in there as a book keeper accountant when I started.

LP:                        Yeah. How long had he been in music at that point, do you know?

RS:                        I have no idea. All I know is actually when I had first started seeing him, he was making movies. He was with Tony Anthony and he did something. I think he won some kind of award that I think they paid for at the time in kind. I think it cost 10-grand to buy the Royal Palm or whatever it was at the Palm de Or, that’s what it was. But I remember hearing rumors, I’m not sure. But the end result was he was in the movie business at the start and he was also working with the acts. And he was dealing with all these other ones at the time. But once again it’s so long ago I can't remember totally everything.

LP:                        So one thing I wanted to ask you about, and I’ve wondered this about Allen, and it sort of it blurred into your book as well. Which was, today the distinction amongst the people in most artists camps is very clear. you know, you have a personal manager, you have an attorney, you have a business manager. It always seemed to me that Allen, and by extension in some of your work, there was a blurring of the business manager and personal manager role. Am I misperceiving that, or did all these acts also have personal representation?

RS:                        I’ve never noticed a real difference, because of the fact that if you’re a business manager you’ve got to be a personal manager if you know talent anywhere in the world. Because no matter what you’re going to try and do it gets personal with them because you’re with them. so I’ve always, for me titles have always been a horrible thing because I’m an accountant. Yet, when I was on the road, I watched security, I collected the money, I was with the boys, everything. I just think titles you know maybe help people categorize what they do. But if you’re a really hard worker titles don’t mean anything. It’s actually what you do. And that’s what I did.

                              I think I was friendly with the groups because they knew that first of all I didn’t judge them. You can do whatever you want to do, I didn’t care, I didn’t judge. And the other thing was, I always had their back. The Stones knew that as a little guy I always have to react violently right away because I’m little. If the big guy gets a hit in first, I’m in trouble. So I always react intensely. And I think they always liked that they knew I had their back and I would use it for them.

LP:                        Yeah. And what do you, you mentioned that concept a few times in the book. What did that mean in practice? It sounds to a certain extent it’s whatever the situation required. Is that fair?

RS:                        Whatever the situation requires above and beyond too. It’s because sometimes things get physical, especially when you’re in mobs and crowds and all that, and you have a lot of fans. So if you’re one who just can't take it and run away, forget it. But if you jump in fRSt of them and block somebody from hitting them, they understand where you’re coming from and I think that’s any business you’re in. But somebody that’s willing to sacrifice for you, they respect somebody that respects the relationship that much.

LP:                        Yeah. Before I pivot more directly into your story there’s one last thing, I wanted to ask you about Allen Klein which was, the hand full of people that I know that interacted with him or knew him, it seems like he was a bit of a contradiction. I guess in so much as we all are. But people have the same person could hold very extreme positions on him on being very critical of how hard nosed he was in negotiations and even to the point of dealing sort of screwed or taken by him. But at the same time, there’s this weird strange loyalty or admiration that people felt for him. Can you help thread that at all, can you help explain what that was about?

RS:                        Maybe I don't know. I listened to your interview of Andrew Oldum who I love, I love Andrew from those days and the things I remember with him. And the thing that always struck me about Andrew was, when we went to Allen’s funeral and Andrew came up to talk, of all the people that I thought might have negative things to say, because you know the Stones were gone from Andrew to Allen and all that, I thought it would be Andrew.

                              But Andrew fought the UK press and actually came out defining the fact that the reason he really let down was cos he made the money for them that nobody could at the time. And because of that it overweighed all of the things. And so he said Allen was great and he loved him. At the time, at Allen’s funeral. It was a little different I heard when you talk to him this time. But it’s like anything else, I think nothing is black and white.

                              That’s why I quit law. I minored in law for a short time, and the reason why I ended up quitting that was because it’s not black and white. It’s, “Oh wait no, I’m right here it is.” Oh no, no, it’s personality, it’s people’s perception, it’s all kinds of other things, and that’s where you’re talking about also. So nothing’s black and white. The same guys that the Stones can curse him for saying, that he screwed them over, are still thankful that he did what he did to every time them the piece of chunk of money that he got them, and the leverage that he got them. Same thing with the Beatles.

                              And Allen I can define as this, Allen he used to always sit there and say he went to an orphanage and therefore he was a survivor, from somebody that went to an orphanage. And my mother used to say, “Yeah, he was in the orphanage for a couple of weeks, but he had that mindset.” And so as a survivor he always made sure that he got taken care of so he didn’t get screwed over again. And that’s how I always look at Allen, and the things that went on.

LP:                        Yeah, yeah. And so in a lot of ways he was sort of there as either a pivotal figure, or certainly in the brew of people that sort of dragged the music industry into a bit more of a modern era. The beginning of the modern era? And I think people credit the work you did on the ‘69 Stones tour, with really modernizing the Rock and Roll business.

                              Before we get to that, could you give us a little bit of the foundation story of how you first came into the orbit of the Stones?

RS:                        Yeah. Like I said, I came to New York during the summers when I was in college to work. And in ’65 I graduated and I came up to New York to stay there forever. Allen didn’t have the Stones at that time. Like I said I was in Miami, I danced to Satisfaction, I come to New York, I go in the back room where I do all the numbers and adding. And then the Stones were in the office, I met them on the boat, we went to the Beatles thing.

                              But once again I happened to be lucky. I don’t honor celebrity. I don’t care about it. To me that means nothing, it’s just words. When you see how fast people tear them down. So when I met the Stones it was just a couple of guys my age, and we hung out and laughed about dumb things that all college guys do. And that was it originally.

                              And then on the day that they were starting the tour on ’65, my uncle called me and said, “Oh by the way, you’re going on the road with the Stones and representing me in the box office.” Just like that. The day it was happening is the day that I was going on my first plane flight. My first thing on the road with the Stones. And my first venture into a box office, which I had not idea what went on in box office. And all those things I had to learn on the fly. And so that was my first learning experience, and how I got started in Rock and Roll. And how I started with the Stones.

                              And I got to sit there as we all identified with one another. The other things that I think the Stones liked was they first treated me very skeptically. Brain Jones, Major. I mean, here I was the nephew of their business manager, and immediately it was, “He doesn’t know anything, it’s just a flaky job thing.” And then when they saw me work hard, and like I said, get in there and fight for them and be the first guy pushing away the people to get, that’s when we became closer and closer. And then those nights when you’d fly in on the road, you know you do show, leave and go into another date, and at two in the morning arrive in Pensacola, or some little town and have to find food. All those little moments I think in ’65 synced out relationship for as long as it lasted. You know they knew I was there for them, and they were there for me.

LP:                        Yeah. I thought you painted a really good picture that a lot of people either don’t remember or never knew in the first place. Which was this sort of, this smaller America where you would roll into a town in the middle of the night and there was literally nothing. You know, there was no notion of 24-hour convenience. And as you said you know, at best you might find a greasy spoon where the locals would be or the truckers would be coming through or what have you. And it was just a completely different idea that you could have a national touring entity in ’65, ’66, and you know there just wasn’t the infrastructure with respect?

RS:                        There was another factor, the Stones were banned from a lot of the good hotels at that time. We had a battle trying to get into different places, because they wouldn't allow Rock and Roll, it’s horrible people. So that was a battle within of itself. We’d be in little motels.

LP:                        Yeah. I think another piece that shined through is that to a certain extent some of the I guess the mythology of the stereotypes within the band were sort of confirmed by you as a first hand person. So Mick being very concerned with the business and the production. And Keith being just so about the music. And Brian being sort of emotionally hurt and needy. Bill sort of always being on the make, and on the prowl. And Charlie being sort of the rock and the devoted husband. I think those are themes we hear about a lot.

RS:                        It did all that, good.

LP:                        Yeah, I think so. Is there anything about the band collectively, or as individuals that you know or that you learned that really defies some of the stereotypes about them?

RS:                        Well, one of them would be that they had groupies every night like crazy that would only be Bill. That wasn’t the case. The case of the Stones, they were always creating and working out. Mick and Keith were always writing music, and working, we’re on the road. They didn’t have time really for that kind of stuff. And Charlie, most of the things that I described were the way that they were. That’s the way the guys were all the time.

                              It’s like any group of guys. Five guys together. It would be those little silly things where two of the guys would come over and, “RS don’t let Bill know we’re going to do this.” Or, “Don’t’ tell Brian we’re going here”. It would always be the typical dynamic of guys, and I’d have to balance my loyalty and be careful that anybody didn’t think, no, no you’re favorite. Nobody wanted me to favor Mick. So I had to be very careful about that, and especially Keith.

                              So I don't know what else I could clarify in those things except it’s mostly true the way they fit into those dynamics.

LP:                        Yeah. And you don’t talk about it too much in the book but, what role did you and Allen have to play during some of their trouble around the Redlands boss, and some of the things that Brian was going through. Were you guys there during that, and did you have to get them through that to any extent?

RS:                        Absolutely. I mean, see Allen, the one thing they never say about Allen is, is Allen if you’re working with Allen, it’s family. And so no matter what happens he was there like a family person to be the support. But it goes beyond support. He got them the top lawyers, the Queen’s Councils, as they say. And he was there just moral support, and anything he could do business wise, press wise. We had different press guys doing all that. And it was just, the times were changing.

                              That was everybody felt that they were really railroading Mick, because of the pills and all those things that were going on and, “Hey, it’s only sex and drugs. We’re not hurting anybody else.” It was only out at Redlands. So the end result Allen and I were always there to secure them. Even with me getting Brian into the Hilton, and them wanting to throw him out of the Hilton. And me fighting with them over that. And then being there with him when he cried himself to sleep. He was a shambles after the second bust.

                              But that’s thing that like I said, we’re in a meeting and he comes over and kisses me on the top of my head. They felt that way, that you were there helping them, when other people were out there for their money. As opposed to trying to actually help them when they had a problem.

LP:                        Yeah. And Keith talks about this a lot. But, being in London at that time, experience during that sort of ’66, ’67, ’68 era. Where they sort of public enemy number one? Where they really as persecuted and sort of, like were the authorities after them to prove a point? Or was that just sort of the guys feeling like they knew the outlaws. Can you pierce that mythology at all?

RS:                        Well not being in the mindset of the UK cops or anything like that. But I believe that was the case, they were after them. Remember they wanted to set an example of Rock and Roll people to quell the rebellion. So they tried that when they put Mick and Keith in jail, you know for sentencing for years for what was going on. So when the public rebelled saying wait this is unfair, then actually I think they started easing off.

                              But there is documented history that they were perusing Brian I believe and Keith. And I think there was a coupe of constables that were always after them, and that’s just human nature. I mean, I believe that I wasn’t there to see it and validate. But I could sense the paranoia. And I’m sure they did get busted, so as opposed to leaving them alone. I mean they could have busted Keith Moon 400-million times, but they didn’t seem to go after, I don't know maybe they did but, there were other people that didn’t get the attack that Mick and Keith got originally in the UK.

LP:                        Yeah. It seems particularly savage the way they picked up on Brian’s vulnerability and really just went after the guy. It’s very unfair. I mean to take somebody in his condition and to repeatedly just hammer away at. It’s like finding a weak link?

RS:                        Look at Paul and John. Paul McCartney, John Lennon. They weren’t pure, but you don’t hear anyone going after them. No, no it was definitely biased against the rock and rollers, as opposed to the band that your mother loved.

LP:                        Yeah. Well it’s interesting, you talked about the generation gap a couple of times, and one thing that I hadn’t realized, and this was just my own misperception or myth making. Was that, I always thought of Allen Klein as a perpetually middle aged or older guy, you know what I mean. But he wasn’t really that much older you, and he wasn’t really that much older than them, you know, 10, 12 years or so?

RS:                        Yeah, 10 to 15 years.

LP:                        But I guess at that time, 10 or 15 years must have seen more dramatic than it was?

RS:                        I think the use of drugs makes it more dramatic, and the lack of using drugs. Allen was ultra-straight, clean, and I did drugs with the boys. So there was the difference. See they could come to me and we could relate. And then they could deal with Allen. I think that was the leveraging point. Allen was the dad. Even though it was only 10 or 15 years, Allen was the dad taking care of the business. And we were still the kids. And we were kids.

LP:                        Yeah. Yeah. And so just to wrap up the foundation part of the story, you go out on the road with the band after really not being with Allen for that long. You go out in ’65, you’re in the box office. Clearly a super important job on any tour, to this day, setting, dealing with the promoters. Why you?

RS:                        [laughs] Well, I think I was, the Stones got along with me. remember I told you we went to the Beatles thing and I hung around with them, and they like me. I went out to the clubs with them and all that. And when we went into the Beatles it was me who screamed to get Allen to come in with us. because he was the old guy who was always with Mick and Keith. With all those things in mind, I don't know. It’s just I don't know whether it’s faith or timing or what have you. I had the right disposition and the right mindset.

                              When I was in school I kind of, I get the top test for the accountants, I get some level two exam, and the professor at the University of Miami didn’t believe it, originally. He kept thinking I cheated because I joke around, I have a sense of humor. And they figure a really smart guy is a wise guy. And I was always a bit of a wise guy, sarcastic tease as we’d say. And so Czech of that people down played how smart I was.

                              And then in school when I got the highest score in the accounting class the teacher came forward in our class, my friends still [unintelligible 00:24:00] and apologies. He said, “You know RS, I always thought that you cheated. And you really weren’t the one, but you got the highest grade.” And I said, “That’s because I know who to cheat from.” And that was how it went. So that give you a hole. So the bottom line is I don't know what did it, but it just worked out right. I enjoyed the numbers in the bottom box office. I didn’t mind confRStation. I wasn’t shy when it came to that, and I had their back. So I think that’s why it worked out. That’s why I stayed with them. That’s why they got me in ‘69 I think.

LP:                        Yeah. Let’s jump forward to that. So, one thing that was a bit of a new revelation for me was really that the business model for the ‘69 tour was borne much more of necessity than I realized. So the band, and I guess Mick, and you had a vision about bringing the complete production and the complete show into each market. As opposed to destroy the benefit of our listeners at the time. Counting on the local promoter to maybe package or to provide sounds and lights. Or to take care of various elements of the production than just pay the band.

                              You guys went in with a different concept and a different model. But you had to break out of the sort of fee, or minimum guarantee model, really because you needed advance cash flow to stage the tour, to build the production you want to build. Can you talk a little bit about sort of the run up to the ‘69 tour?

RS:                        Sure. On the run u to the ’69 tour I left Abco. I didn’t know anything was going on at the time. It was something my uncle and I, and the end result was after seven years of being there I decided that, well it’s decided for me when Allen was ignoring me, I left. So there was nothing going on with the tour with me in ’69. When I left, a few weeks after I left, I don't remember how long it was, I got a phone call from Mick. He was working on Ned Kelly shooting in Australia. He says, “I don’t mean to bother you, but we decided we want you to the tour.” The ’69 tour. And I said, you know I’m no longer working at Abco, I’m not going to be doing the tour. And they said, “No, no we want you to do the tour. Will you do it?” And I just said we needed my uncle’s approval.

                              The end result is, bottom line is I got my uncle’s approval, he also was fired. Put all that aside, so when I wanted to do the tour, number one it was me, there was nobody else. I didn’t have a company. I didn’t have other people. I didn’t have lawyers. I had no organization. I was home in the bedroom with our newly born baby. So I didn’t know what was going on. Anyhow they said, go ahead and do it. I contacted promoters, everybody contacted me. The bottom line was we were building this. But the whole idea of this one entity for the show was 100 percent the Rolling Stones. They were sick of going and doing venues with the acts before them had no business being there with the type of talent they were. They wanted to package the whole thing with acts that they wanted to see as well. Ike and Tina Turner, you know Chuck Berry, all these different little acts they asked me. Not Chuck Berry, all these different people they asked me to get them. And we were negotiating it as it was going along.

                              Then luckily before I had gotten involved Allen had done a deal with William Morris a talent agency to book the tour. So William Morris contacted me because Allen no longer had the tour, and they wanted to come on and do it. And I said well, “Well I would let them do it for half the usual fee because I’ve been working on it. And two, I needed some money because I had nothing to go on and do it. So they said, “OK, you’ll have to talk to the financial guy, we’ll get you money and whatever we’ll do it for seven and a half perfect. Don’t tell anybody.” That’s how this tour was starting.

                              The Stones meanwhile brought in Chipmunk who was going to do the staging and lighting, and they were creating this monster, tour to go along, that as Chip would say it would be like the ice capades. It would be train loads of equipment and all this other stuff involved. And it was going to cost a lot of money. And everybody was doing it for love at the beginning. Nobody would say anything about money yet.

                              Chip was doing it all, they were talking to all the different people, but now they were getting ready to commit the acts, and talent agents don’t take words. They want cash for their talent. So we couldn't commit to any of the group to do it, so I needed to get money. So I contacted William Morris and they basically said that they would advance us money. They give you $15,000. And that was only going to cover the plane flight to bring the Stones in, that’s all that was going to do.

                              Meanwhile they said, “Look, we’re going to give you the contract. You prove the contract, we’re sending out to the promoters that we’re doing the deals with.” And I gave them, they had to do 50 percent advance where scaling the house, all these things that are details that are too much now. But the end result was, when they gave me that contract here are those moments of faith. When they gave me that contract, I look at it, and it said make out the guarantee check to William Morris Agency. And I just drew a line through that and said make it out to Stone Promotions Limited, which was my company in the US. Not trying to hide anything, I just did that.

                              Bottom line is, a couple weeks later I get the phone call from William Morris that they had the checks but I had to endorse them over to them. I went in there and they gave me about $150,000 worth of checks. And I thanked them, and put them in my pocket and left. And used those checks to fund the beginning of the tour. And as I left William Morris agency they said, “Listen, if you don’t do any of the first four concerts, we’re all out of business forever. That was the bottom line they had. They figured they sue.

                              But bottom line, that’s how the tour all started. And you know that’s all I can say about that. It was just freaky luck.

LP:                        Yeah. It’s funny you’re also reinforcing another point which I think on Andrew talked about as well. As I’m sitting here listening to you, you’re so self-effacing about something that really wound up in changing the live music business. Have no real precedent at the time. Yet, what you’re not saying is we went in with this mastermind plan, and we rolled it out across the country, and we bent the world to our will. There were all these little happenstance events that taken in total, created a new model. But it was really just a lot of hustle?

RS:                        Well I’ll define it easily as my mindset. I’m an accountant. So when they said you’re doing the tour, I had done the previous tours. Even though I didn’t do the contracts. And what I knew was that you fill up an entire stadium if you say Rolling Stones. And so if I’m filling up an entire stadium, let’s split the money down the middle that we’re making here. The promoters don’t have to spend that much to get them.

                              And I knew the numbers that I could make sure that the way I was structuring it, the promoters would come away with a 10 percent profit, which is what they hope for anyhow, if they make any profit. So no matter what they would get a 10, that’s how I was structuring in my head.

                              We also set the ticket prices because the promoters wanted to scalp and actually really charge high prices. That’s why later on we’re all the rumor of us overcharging for the tickets got me upset. Because at the very beginning the Stones wanted to make sure nobody, none of the fans got screwed over. Everything the Rolling Stones ever did was for the fans. To make them happy, to do it all good and all that.

                              They wouldn't have seating behind them on the concerts, which would have made us all a lot more money. They didn’t want to have anybody sitting where anything would block their view. I mean, they really did things. And then to hear the press come out and say, “Oh no, the Stones are screwed.” And that always got me very upset. It took 50 years to have that straightened out.

LP:                        Well it’s funny you say that because I think that to this day, people will say to me, “The Stones are touring again, I can't believe they're going back out.” Or, “Who would pay that kind of money for a Stones ticket?” And I always tell people, they charge that much money because they're worth it. The Stones don’t do anything half assed. You will get an amazing production. You will amazing sound. You will get Mick, you will get Keith. You know like, it’s not a paint by numbers night out. And if you got to believe, but if you believe that band delivers. And they defy logic. They defy expectation. It makes no sense that they're able to do what they do.

                              Mick turned 77 yesterday, it makes no sense. It makes no sense that they’re able to do what they do at the level they do it at. But I truly believe them. When Keith says, I would stop doing it if I couldn't do it. It’s not about the money. Or as Bill Graham would say, “It’s not about the money, it’s about the money.” You know. Like they do it because they can. And they do it because they have an integrity about it. And yeah, they leave with a pretty penny, but nobody’s getting ripped off. I truly believe it. The Rolling Stones deliver.

RS:                        Oh yeah. I mean I think the ticket price is ridiculous, but everything has gone up. Like I said, I used to be principle would always send me ticket. I’d say I’d never pay for these it’s too ridiculous. And to me it’s old guys. But once again they are entertaining and the thought that Mick used to be pissed at me because I was six months younger than him. And I’d always get, when you talk about the age, yeah, me being a little bit younger used to get them really upset. That and also getting a percentage.

LP:                        Yeah. Yeah. It’s funny I think everybody worked on flats now. But I always get a kick out of every tour I try to take somebody new who’s never seen. And just watch them have their mind blown by these men who again, who should not be able to conjure what they're able to conjure. It’s really, I get a kick out seeing it.

RS:                        It’s the music, it’s the music. But wait that’s an interesting thing. We started out by you saying my thing about music. Once again accountant numbers that’s about as close. But in that thing, I had my daughter turned out to be a music teacher in heavy music. My grandson produces and engineer’s music, now is writing his own stuff. I don't know whether it gets into your blood, or into your brain or somehow when you’re out on the road. But bottom line is now, music played a big part in the rest of my life.

LP:                        Yeah, yeah. Well take me through the rest of the ’69 tour then? I think you know a lot of us we know how and where it ended. But before we get to the Bay area, before we get to the east Bay area in December, talk to me a little bit about that tour. It was such, it’s so mythologized in music legend and in The Stones story.

                              So you raised the money. You hustled $150-grand. You build the production. You got what Ike and Tina Turner, BB King?

RS:                        BB King, yeah, I love BB King. And Chuck Berry was on some of the dates. And who, I mean I blur them all because I go back to ’65. I go back to the Vibrations, and Patti LaBelle, and all those others that are all part of it. But yeah, no, the biggest one was Ike and Tina and BB Kind, and Chuck Berry on the fill in. There was somebody else too that was with us, but once again it blurs.

LP:                        Oh it was male singer. I want to say Keith Rell but that’s not who it was. Anyway it doesn’t matter. We’ll let one of the super fans remind us. So the tour heads out, how did it go?

RS:                        OK, once you get into the tour, I’ve never been at war, but I would assume it’s like being at war. All of a sudden you’re enclosed in this little group of people. And you’re traveling army. But we were an army traveling. We had our advance man, and all the crew that had to move ahead and get to the date before us. We had to then come in.

                              It was a small group on the ’69 tour. It’s funny Ethan did a great, but Ethan … Russel did a great book on it, and like there were 16 of us that ran that whole tour. And the fact that I mean with the Stones as part of it, it was just me and then the representative of the Stone. And now when you look at these giant productions it was just me and my house, and a few people working. And we had a plane and we traveled. That was about it.

LP:                        There’s more than 16 family members out now?

RS:                        I mean like I said, now when I look at it, the catering is probably more than we had on the entire tour. But as it was, it was a great little cocoon of people that would travel. We would just go from date to date. I would have to go in the box office, collect the money. There would be crowd of fans. It would be a battle getting into the venue. It would be a battle getting out of the venue. Getting to the plane. Flying out going to. That’s all it was, it was just moving to date to date. We’d have a few days that we could relax every now and then, where we would have a day off in the hotel. And then we would get together. As groups we usually do things together, go horseback riding.

                              But the thing is, I forgot a lot of it. Fans send me pictures to remind me. One fan sent me a picture from July 1966, Katy. She send a picture saying, “Oh, is this you guys by the hotel swimming pool?” And it was a picture of all of us hanging out by the pool. Brian, Keith. Like it’s so great that people have these things. And to this day I get pictures from people with events I wasn’t even aware of.

                              Anyhow, the tour just rumbled on as we were going. And things were happening on the way. The most important thing that I can stress is that, let me bring it to the magic times when we were in New York and we were going to be doing. When you perform in LA that’s special because of the LA press and the different LA people. New York is a whole different ball game at Madison Square Garden.

                              And when The Stones were coming in to do Madison Square Garden, what people don’t know before hand and one thing that I might straighten out is, I met with David [Maysles], David and Albert Maysles the day, Thanksgiving Day. The day before we were going to be doing Madison. Because The Stones wanted to film a few of their songs to promote the European tour that was going to happen afterwards in 1970, or after the US tour. So they wanted to film a couple of the songs. And that’s all. And I was told to go find a director and sound man to shoot, camera man, to shoot the two or three songs for the promotion. And as faith all turned out I got the Maysles, David and Albert Maysles.

                              They met me and they said they were going to go check it out. And the day that they were going to shoot Madison Square Garden to get those songs, I signed the deal with them, just to shoot those songs for 20-grand, that was it. So there’s a lot of books that say we had deals at the beginning of the tour. No, no the deal with the Maysles was first done for four songs at the Thanksgiving. After the Madison Square Garden show, we were awaiting to hear if we were going to go to Miami. They were going to pay us 100-grand to go to Miami. We were waiting on that.

                              They got the OK, the money was in the bank, so we sat on a tarmac for six hours waiting to go to Miami. Go to Miami, do the show in the horrible conditions. Once again it was freezing and cold at night. Raining miserable, most of the fans had already left from this festival. But Mick and Keith said, “No, no we’re performing.” Even with lightening and all this. Because the fans stayed for us. So once again loved them for doing that always.

                              So they performed and then they went to Muscle Shoals. And meanwhile this free concert had been building, which I was always against. And that’s a whole other story. But bottom line that was the ’69 tour. We came up, we did Miami, and the tour was over. The Stones were going to go to Muscle Shoals to make some phenomenal music. And that was the end of it as far as we were concerned at that time.

LP:                        Yeah, all right. So we have to go. We have to go west, because we’d be remised if we didn’t. So I guess early in the tour the story as I understand it is Mick sort of, there was a lot of pressure on the band, because as you mentioned they were getting criticized for you know, the people were demanding free music and the ticket prices, the $8.50 ticket price was somehow unreasonable?

RS:                        By the way the $8.50 wasn’t the ticket price, it was $7.50. All of this was started by the press, no offense. But it was basically Ralph Gleason started the whole thing. And it was all, once again they picked up on, “Oh yeah, what are you going to talk about? We want to sell.” Oh let’s complain about the Stones over … We weren’t overpricing. I had the newspaper clippings that showed that the tickets in Oakland, and San Francisco were $7.50 cents. So bottom line was, that was all just said to dramatize and Bill Graham was really pissed because I wouldn't do a deal with him the way he wanted it.

                              So once again, that might be all those things one never knows. But it was a newspaper article that started it. And the guys on the west coast were pushing The Stones to come out and do a free concert.

LP:                        Yeah, and sort of contribute to an enviRSment where whether or not the band thought it was a good idea, they were sort of susceptible to whatever was in the air?

RS:                        Yeah.

LP:                        And OK, so there’s sort of this subtle diplomacy of Rock Skully, and I guess Sam Cutler, is involved. And there’s all these different characters who are talking about the notion of a free show. But ultimately is it in your lap? Like does it fall to you to have to deal with the details?

RS:                        No. Originally I wasn’t for it, and it was just all talk. There’s been a zillion times I’ve heard talks about festivals and concerts. They were pushing this once again, because it was also the Grateful Dead. All this was coming out of the Grateful Dead office. And Mick Grogen, Rock Skully, Grateful Dead, and who later on Sam Cutler went to manage. He did tour with so that was a small society. It wasn’t The Stones it was them organizing this to begin with, and they wanted to do a giant free concert. Of which the Stones were supposed to be one of the acts.

                              You know we can get into all the details rather than something. The thing that I always felt was, that The Stones always got screwed over by the press because it was west coast press that wanted to build up the west coast. Because remember you had Woodstock earlier, and the east coast was getting all that drive, Richie. All the things from the west coast bands. The west coast now wanted to do the same thing. That was a whole other entertainment industry over there technically. And so they were trying to build that up. And it was going to be built with a free concert. You know with all the different west coast bands.

                              That’s how it was all pitched to me. I had nothing, it was a free concert, I’m a money guy. Why would I go, I had nothing to do with it, until they called me when I was doing the accounting for the end of the ’69 and said, “RS, could come out here we’ve got a problem. We need you to negotiate. We’ve got another venue, the new venue because the Golden Gate Park fell through, it’s Sears Point Raceway. It’s owned by Films Ways. Would you come out and do a deal from them, they just want to sign some papers to guarantee that nothing’s wRSg.” And that’s how I got involved.

LP:                        Yeah. And where you there?

RS:                        Well I was flown out. I went out there two days before. And I got in there and I sat down in the hotel to meet with the guys from Film Ways, Dick Saint John. And when I sat and met with Dick Saint John, we started out with how great this is a free, it was all in hotel lobby. You know you’re on the little room sit. Everybody’s all around us.

                              And bottom line is, the free concert was going to cost The Stones about $300,000, and rights they didn’t have. So the end result was I just said there’s no deal. I thought I was coming to negotiate a $6000 lease, and that was it. And it turned out, oh no $100,000 for cleanup, $100,000 for anything else possibly that might happen. And film rights for a film that we didn’t even have. So I said no, and walked away happily. But then when I walked away everything was happening, everybody was still trying to make the event happen.

                              The only thing I next got involved with is I wanted to sue Film Ways for wasting my time to have to come out there. If they're saying it’s a $6000 deal, it turns into a $300,000, to me it was not proper negotiating and I wanted to sue them. And that’s when I ended up getting Melvin [Belli], our PR guy said, “Oh use Melvin Belli, he’s a big PR guy.” And that’s how we got Belli to be our thing. And I was originally suing Film Ways for $11-million, and that’s how Belli got involved.

                              And Belli was promoting it to try and make another event. He was definitely a lawyer who was a showman.

LP:                        Yeah. And I guess to a certain extent you guys are going into somebody else’s home turf, right? Like you have to negotiate, I don’t mean literally negotiate, I mean navigate the local power structure? Who’s the local, you know who’s the power broker? Who’s the big shot attorney? Who’s the land owners? And I would imagine that doesn’t provide clarity in the moment?

RS:                        No. Not only that, when we were doing that negotiation there was another point just slip me. When I had the lawyers and all that, the end result was there was not going to be a concert. Then the, what’s his name came up, my mind’s going. I’m thinking too from ahead, let’s step back. I’ll reset her, I’m sorry. I was thinking all the way to the guy and all these different things. So where should we start? Sorry about that.

LP:                        Well I don’t want to labor out too much, because so much has been talked about it. But you know I would fee remis to not cover it at all.

RS:                        Well let me then interrupt, because I remember what it is. what I wanted to say was, remember The Stones didn’t come there till the day before. Now the thing that always got me, like I said, it wasn’t until the Wall Street Journal came out with the whole analysis, that they realized that The Stones never hired the Hells Angel. It took 50 years for people to admit this. I’ve been screaming about it forever. I would have negotiated that deal, never, ever happened in a million years.

                              But the only thing that I remember that it was Grogen, I did all drugs except LSD. And so when I was brought out to the Grateful Dead’s farm to be able to be part all that negotiations, what they were trying to make happen. My biggest fear was getting dosed. That was my fear the whole time. I didn’t care about a concert or anything else. I was just afraid that I’d lose my mind with these lunatics would be happy to dose you and say, “Ha, ha, ha, we got you.” You know as bad enough as my mind was.

                              So, you know meanwhile all the confluence of events that brought about it, the thing that always got me was the press afterwards had nobody. They couldn't blame the Grateful Dead people who really involved in doing the whole thing, because that’s their bread and butter, that’s all. So they blamed The Stones who left town. So I always said, “Why.” Nobody used any logic. Everybody for 50 years I had to listen to, “The Rolling Stones what a dumb thing hiring the Hells Angels.” No, it’s a dumb thing thinking they did.

LP:                        Yeah. Well I think that’s an interesting point. That if there had been a negotiation you would have done it. And based on the book I would say you probably have some documentation of it as well, [laughs].

                              As a side point, did you hire Sam? Did you bring Sam into the band’s world? How did that all come together?

RS:                        Well the band had used him when they did the thing in London, when they had the thing for Bryan.

LP:                        Oh, Hyde Park, yeah.

RS:                        When they did Hyde Park for Brian. That’s when I think Sam was there. What happens is, when I told Mick I got to it here that my uncle says it’s OK for me to do the tour, it’s OK. The person that called me was Sam Cutler saying, he was with The Stones now, and the bottom line is The Stones are good. My uncle gave approval, I could go do it. But I also had to make it seem like it came out of his office.

                              So al these things came from Sam. All the people involved with the tour actually except for John James, directly came from The Stones hiring them. And John came because of a recommendation to Chip from some other people. Because John’s supposedly, John who if anybody knows was a giant conman, who nearly got me killed. But the end result was, he basically came because he was doing promotions for Chrysler, and he said he could deliver Chrysler cars on the tour.

LP:                        Well the John James story, it’s one that I feel like it’s really only surfaced in the last few years between your book, and Sam talks about him a little bit his book. Still very much scratching his head though. I don’t think it had ever really been pieced together for him. But, I would like to leave the majority of that story for people to read in your book. Because it is such a great picker.

                              But is there enough, or is there an anecdote, is there something you could talk about with the John James situation that won’t give it all away?

RS:                        Well the only thing that I could say is, meeting a conman you learn things from a conman. Unfortunately most of America is dealing with a conman now, it will take a while for them to understand that. But when you mean a conman you understand that, so I usually can spot them.

                              When I came out to LA, I spotted two of them right away that made national attention. So you know the first one that actually brought me to a movie meeting and in the meeting, he was turning around and he said, “Oh well RS’s delivered 50-million for me.” As if that would make me happy saying I’m a guy who could deliver 50-million. So I of course said to him, no I never delivered, what are you talking about? And this guy blew up right then and there.

                              Bottom line is, then one woman was trying to bring in another conman who I noticed. And it turned out he had ripped her off for $25,000 and she’d brought him in to her friends because he said that the next person, he ripped off he’d pay her back. So that’s the mindset of some people.

                              The end result is, unless you’ve met a conman this is a lesson. It’s dangerous. You know, after the tour and after all this stuff John James was still around. I have a friend of mine who called me about maybe 10 years later and said, “RS, I’m in this meeting with this guy, and he’s dropping the name of The Stones and everybody.” And I said, “What’s his.” He said, “John James.” I said, “Get out of there.” Oh John Ellsworth he was using. I said get out of the room, leave immediately. It was scary.

                              He was at the meeting also to try and do Diana Ross’ special in New York. It’s like these guys are just scary. He ripped off The United Children’s fund. And President, it was just horrible stuff. Anyhow.

LP:                        Yeah. So the events at Altamont [unintelligible 00:50:46], Give Me Shelter gets made. What’s the last six to 12 months of your involvement with the band? How does your time with them come to an end?

RS:                        OK, well first of all Give Me Shelter came about in a weirder way. It’s not like there was a plan. Give Me Shelter started with those four songs that the Maysles had record. And then the Maysles asked, “RSny can we go to Muscle Shoals to watch the shows to watch The Stones?” And then they got that footage in Muscle Shoals, which is phenomena footage. And then they said, “Well the free concert’s cooked can we fly there?” So that’s how it started.

                              And then on a plane back from Altamont is David said, “Listen I think we’ll have a film out of this.” And that’s how we started doing the film. They didn’t even know they had the murder then, and Mick didn’t want the murder as a little note. Mick never wanted the murder in the film. All these people want to think that’s all, no none of that happened. Mick hated that. Thought it was a bad thing to be referenced with The Stones.

                              But afterwards, so months go by and I was actually working on Give Me Shelter at the time. I was asked to come to Europe and do the European tour, the 1970 European tour. Even though I didn’t speak any foreign languages. You know I have a rough time with English. So it turns around that they had me do the European tour, and after that coming back to do Give Me Shelter. And after that we just phased out. I was still involved with them with the film. But I wasn’t going to be touring anymore. And they went off to France and started getting a little too drug orientated. And luckily, I think I out of it in time for me. I probably wouldn't have lasted though all of that. Keith is another kind of animal. So that’s it.

LP:                        [laughs] Was it amicable? Did it just end one day? Did it just drift apart? Like was there a meeting where you guys agree to disagree? Like how does it end?

RS:                        It ends because I’m in Miami and my phone book was stolen. And I had lost all my contact numbers for everybody. And usually the only person I ever in touch with after that was Rupert. It’s like you know we all moved on and it was like the past and you don’t go back to your … It was basically that’s it.

                              When I’d go to see the tours, I would see the events when I was in LA, I went to the Hollywood Bowl, which was when I’d go to the different Rattlesnake Lounge and do all these little things. And who ever I saw always, great, hi, how are you and that was it. Charlie I could talk to. But to me those were the days.

                              It’s kind of like now, I look at The Stones now, no offence guys, but I look at The Stones now as a pickup band. It’s not the guys I knew that were The Stones. It’s like I know they're great and all the other things with RSny Wooden and all this. But I’m still Brian, and Mick Taylor. So that’s how I look at the life. And it all changed and life moved on and never looked back, and that was it.

                              People lose touch, you know. I’m not the same guy as I was then, as they are now.

LP:                        And where did your career go? Did you leave music and pivot entirely into film?

RS:                        I became a dancer, [laughs]. What I decided after The Stones was that I only wanted to work with people that I wanted to help out. I only wanted to work with friends, which is a dangerous thing to do. so I worked with, I helped out some people who were trust fund babies. I helped people who had too much money. I tried to help out a lot of people that I could help out you know. in making record deals and all this.

                              People would bring me to do festivals. They’d say, “RS come in we’ll pay you five-grand. Take a look at our festival.” It was very easy because they’d say what do you think, would security the way it is, you can't do it. So it was easy to say no and make five-grand usually to do those. But I went and did that. I did a couple of films, but life just went on. I just with my friends a rock and roll bus business, lanyards. Life just went on with me doing individual little deals for helping people and you know making films and getting a piece of the films. And that was it.

LP:                        Wow. So what do you do now?

RS:                        Well the funny thing was, after all this I figured that I would eventually write a book about it when I was in prison, [laughs]. I figured I’d bide time in prison, that was it. Because I knew a lot of dangerous people. So the end result was when that didn’t happen, you know about a few years later when I hit 69 I said, “Well I’m 69 now what did I do last time it was 69 in year 69?” So I decided to write a book.

                              Because I started seeing all these stories come out from people that reported to know what they were talking about, about The Stones. All these experts that weren’t even born then. And I started to see all this malarkey. All these stories that had no basis of truth at all. I mean it was just ridiculous things from people that were knowledgeable too. Be amazed at some of them.

                              So I said, well before I forget and after I found that I had boxes of all the documents that documented all the things that happened. Because you can't trust your memory after 50 years. I had all the documents that would refresh the memory. I was able to go ahead and write a book. And then they’re now talking about doing a movie of the book, which is even more funny to me. That’s so weird.

LP:                        Well I wanted to ask you about the documents. It’s so amazing to go back and look at some of that stuff. Some of it, it’s just there’s a simplicity to some of it that is just, you know, you don’t get that in a contract these days in the modern music business. But it’s amazing to read the show deals and to read some of the correspondence around the film. Where you a pack rat, or is it just this was because you ran the tour it was basically your office so you held everything? Like how did you come to have this trove?

RS:                        Well because it was my office, I ran everything in my bedroom, you know, and everything out of it to this day. And it was just lucky. I mean I threw out tons of stuff and a lot of it got destroyed. I had collections of all the records from the UK and US, that all got ruined in a flood. I mean so the end result is, I went in, I totally forgot I had these boxes. And I pulled them out of storage and I started to go through them. And then I found all of the things that I had. It’s not so much a pack rat, it’s luckily I kept the right things.

LP:                        Yeah, yeah. And so do you have a legacy in the music business? Is your legacy Give Me Shelter? Is your legacy the ’69 tour? Do you think that way?

RS:                        The way I think is how will I look at all of this when I’m dead? At the end when I’m dead it won’t mean anything to me. So no, I don’t care about any of that. To me I’m a creature of what is today, now. And then I hope for tomorrow. Because faith’s always been interesting in the way these things work out, you know. You can't tell who would have ever predicted a pandemic. That’s why I don’t predict anything. Just know just adjust to whatever is happening. That’s a true survivor. Just adjust. This too shall be over one way or another.

LP:                        Yeah. Well one of the things I thought was super fascinating was very early in your book you talk about sort of coming to that mindset as a relatively young person, 11 or 12 years, preadolescent really. Sort of thinking about existential issues, and then sort of consciously deciding not to. That it’s sort of an unwinnable argument with yourself, so why not just deal with what’s right in fRSt of you and make the most of that? That’s pretty damn healthy?

RS:                        Well that was it. Number one I said at the time I remembered I was always depressed, because I was always going crazy. I was intelligent and I said, “Gee, if you’re intelligent you see all this suffering and misery, should you bother living if no matter what you’re going to die. So you know nothing changes, you die, so die now or. Anyhow, so I was always concerned that I was going to kill myself.

                              And then one day later I was in the shower and I started dreaming and a poem came to me, and it was basically that I was falling down a well, and then I had a choice to fall down the well or grab on and hang on and not fall. Then I decided that, hey you might as well just fall and let it happen. So that’s what happened. I just said no reason to try and affect life and try and do all these things, you can't win. So I realized, OK I’m just going to live and now let’s see what happens. And this is where it brought me to now.

                              I would have never, first of all I thought I was going to be dead at 36. The life I was living, drugs and all those. I for sure I wasn’t going to make it past my mid-30s. So here I am, 76, and I had to fill that time somehow.

LP:                        Well I tell you what, I don't know if you have a special filter on zoom or whatever, but you’re very youthful 76 in mind, body, and spirit?

RS:                        I have these two paintings in my closet that age of Mick and Keith. [laughs]

LP:                        [laughs] And I think they might have one of you, [laughs]. RS, thank you so much for spending time and sharing some stories. Thank you so much for writing the book. I’m looking forward to getting through the rest of it. I’m going to do that in the next couple days. But thank you so much.

RS:                        My pleasure, my pleasure LP. And I love what you’re doing, is you keep all this alive.

LP:                        So important. It’s so important. We have to remember where we came from. And maybe I’ll get you back someday and we can talk about the Beatles and some other fun stuff.

RS:                        Oh yes. The Beatles, that’s another story.

LP:                        Yeah, I would love to go there. RS, I’ll let you know when this will be out, but it probably would be in a week or 10 days. But I’ll let you know and I’ll send you the link.

RS:                        OK.

LP:                        And, be well, stay safe.

RS:                        Thank you, you too stay safe. Nice talking to you LP, bye, bye.

LP:                        All right, take care, bye, bye.