(This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.)
Lawrence Peryer: I've got to ask about this Alaska thing. I was looking at your tour dates over the years, and it's like, wow, I think this might be the biggest band in Alaska. What's the story with that? What is this Alaska thing?
Christine Elise: It's amazing. Our first trip there was in 2018. We went over there on a grant during the darkest and coldest time of the year when there's not much going on and they need some extra love and light during those really cold and dark times.
Küf Knotz: Yeah, it's when alcoholism, drug use, and suicide rates are at their highest during that time.
Lawrence: Oh, so the grant is to try to bring in things for people to do—bring in art, bring in healing, bring in just anything to get people to connect.
Küf: Yeah, exactly.
Lawrence: That's really amazing. What do you see in the audience? Is that reflected in the audience? Do you feel the need? Do you see the weather or the darkness?
Küf: Yeah, I feel like that first trip we did, one hundred percent. Everyone was really receptive and open and super appreciative. That made for such a good show because we were giving them something, and in return, they were giving us this great energy to perform in front of because they were so receptive. I think that's what solidified us going back year after year—that initial connection.
We haven't gone back in the winter since then, but it carried over because when we do go back, those same people are there. Word of mouth is the best promotion you can have, so each time we go back, there are more and new people.
Lawrence: It's really interesting to see the itinerary because it's not like a show or two. You're really spending some time there, traveling around. Geographically, how far apart are all the areas? It's hard to tell, as someone in the lower forty-eight—I've not been to Alaska. My perception is you don't really get anywhere quickly.
Küf: Exactly.
Lawrence: Or easily.
Küf: For sure.
Christine: Well, when we're going into Anchorage, there's one highway that goes about six and a half hours north and then about six hours south. That's pretty manageable to get all the way up to Fairbanks and all the way down to Homer in one tour. Since we're going only for a week this time, we're going to just be going north. When we go a little bit longer, like a month trip, then we start taking the small planes to other places off that highway, which are even more remote. It just heightens our adrenaline of meeting people and taking conversations to the next level.
Lawrence: It's really incredible though. It's such an interesting way to build community around the music and to build connection with people. I can just imagine it's such a unique vibe versus just rolling into a town and playing whatever the normal venue would be. Although, I'm curious, what is your typical venue experience? Are you playing clubs or alternative venues? Where does one see you?
Küf: It's funny. When we first started playing from 2018 to 2020, we were focused on doing venues—the normal venue. During the two years where we couldn't do anything, we recalibrated how we would approach the road. Venues are great because they're built for music and the audience and everything, but we found that we enjoy shows and events outside of typical music venues the most.
Not to say that we won't play venues—we did a tour with this artist from France who came to the U.S., Wax Tailor. He took us on a twenty-city tour and all of those were major venues. That experience was amazing too, but it still felt like there was a disconnect with high stages, far away from the audience. Being right up in an intimate space just feels really good. Any chance we get to throw a show somewhere outside of a venue or partner up with a community art center or organizations that have space available where we can create our own show—that usually feels the best for us.
Lawrence: What's really interesting about what you do is that it doesn't take a ton of production. It seems like you're pretty self-contained. You could do a show in a museum or whatever—you could roll in and sort of control how you present yourself.
Küf: A hundred percent, yeah.
Lawrence: I know I jumped right in. I wanted to go back a little bit to the pre-beginning, not just the beginning. Obviously, so much of the coverage and other things I've read about you is like, "Oh my God, she plays harp and he's a rapper! Oh my, how did this happen?" And while it certainly is unique and I don't want to take anything away from the unique and beautiful sound you're making, something that sort of landed for me is like, well, of course—because this is what hip-hop does. Hip-hop is nothing if not innovative and incorporating everything around it constantly, whether that's the news or the world or other sound. This was just a matter of time before the harp got sucked into the cyclone.
Küf: Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Lawrence: I want to direct this question to you, Christine. What was your musical palette before you and Küf connected and how wide-ranging were your interests?
Christine: I was more into artists like Sufjan Stevens, CocoRosie, some Motown, the Ohio Players. At the time of my life before meeting Küf and this project, I was a full-time music therapist, so all my music inquiry and searching was stuff that I could use in sessions, which was a lot of that Motown and emotional evoking music.
To be honest, hip-hop—I really just knew the songs that maybe everybody knew. That one Tribe Called Quest song that everybody can sing. I didn't really dive into the culture before this, but since I was really open to improvising and figuring out how to navigate fitting in different places and different genres in music therapy, my music therapy studies allowed me to jump in and listen and figure out where the harp could fit in. Then as I was listening to more hip-hop music, I just heard it sampled all the time.
Lawrence: To be a harp player, to me, that brings up a lot of preconceived notions, and one of them is a lot of education and training. Could you talk a little bit about the educational part of your musical background? Are you classically trained? Did you do that since you were a little kid? Was it miserable?
Christine: One thing that a lot of people don't really realize is the harp is very similar to piano. If you open up an upright piano and see all the strings, that's pretty much the inside of a piano—that's the harp. So a lot of harp teachers who practice classically really won't take on students if they don't have a proficient amount of skills in piano.
I started playing piano at seven, and that was my instrument where I really had that vigorous practicing, like you were saying, getting sick of it. I always reserved the harp for improvisation and creativity that I could get away from that classical box, which allowed me to not think of the harp from a classical perspective, but a more percussive, emotional perspective.
I was classically trained. I did take harp lessons all through high school and college. But I practiced six hours a day of piano in college, and only used the harp expressively with friends, improvising, sometimes in sessions. So it kept my connection with it magical, which I have felt over time is lost if you vigorously practice something over and over again, trying to connect with it.
Lawrence: It's interesting to hear some of what you had to say there because I talk to a lot of artists here who, generally speaking, come from a few different broad categories of background, and the artists who were classically trained growing up actually had a very difficult time later in life transitioning to being improvisational musicians. It's really fascinating to hear that you sought out that element. I wonder, was it just about having a place to play and a release valve from the rigidity of classical? Could you tell me a little bit about that?
Christine: There was this cellist who had packed away—his name is David Darling. He created this whole program called Music for People. The program was really about teaching how to use music by listening and not so much through theory. There were workshops around the states, and it was offered through my college.
When I was in that program, I really dove into improvisation. At that point, I didn't want to use piano, so I wanted to use something that was fresh that I wouldn't have a hard time switching. I think if it wasn't for that program, I wouldn't have been so open-minded. Their concept is "no wrong notes, play what you hear, hear what you play." That helped me become a good listener within music and improvise.
Lawrence: Is it safe to say then that your career path prior to connecting with Küf was more about being in the music therapy world? You weren't necessarily doing the hustle of trying to make it as a performing artist or make your income as an artist?
Christine: Yeah, I was a full-time music therapist. The first time I ever performed in a venue was when he called me about three hours before soundcheck. It was the biggest night in the States to play, which is the night before Thanksgiving, and he said, "Hey, can you sit in on this show?" I had to say yes because I knew if I didn't say yes, then someone else would just fill in.
Lawrence: Some other harp player? Küf was like, "Oh, my regular harp player couldn't make it tonight..."
Christine: So that was actually the first time that I played in a music venue, when he said, "Come play."
Lawrence: Wow. And so, Küf, your situation was a little different in that you were grinding it out—you were looking to be a performing artist, a recording artist, a touring artist. That was your path.
Küf: Yeah, for sure. Before this project, I was always in bands, like full bands. I had been doing it for years before this. It was that typical starving artist lifestyle, grinding to get gigs, trying to keep a band together while making the minimum amount of money and having to split the pot so many ways. It was definitely a grind. But that's what I had been doing since college.
Lawrence: Yeah. What kind of bands? What was a typical lineup?
Küf: Drums, bass, keys, guitar, and then I always had a vocalist as well.
Lawrence: So was it in the mold of The Roots?
Küf: Yeah, living and growing up in Philly, that was a huge inspiration. At that time, we're talking like mid-2000s, like 2004 to 2011, Philadelphia and the soul scene and the live hip-hop was at a high, and I was definitely in that movement. The first band was more like Limp Bizkit, like rock and hip-hop. And then after that, it was pretty much all neo-soul, hip-hop, jazz-influenced bands.
Lawrence: I know a lot of those new metal and hip-hop fusion bands are coming back or they're on the nostalgia circuit, but I'm going to go on record as saying the neo-soul stuff has aged much better.
Küf: I would agree with you 100%.
Lawrence: I'm not a hater, I'm just saying. It's interesting, though, because along those lines, the music the two of you make—it could be '94, it could be 2004, it could be 2024, and it's not retro or throwback. It's just not dated, and it's not pinned to any specific school of hip-hop. I mean, I guess maybe, but it kind of floats through time.
Küf: Thank you, that's the aim.
Lawrence: Yeah. Well, how does one aim for that? Other than setting the intention of wanting to make music that's timeless, how do you translate that? Is it being careful about what equipment you use, or it's going to sound like an 808? How do you achieve that?
Küf: I think a lot of times it comes together pretty organically. We both pull from things that we really love growing up, but also as recent as last year, and just take those influences and aim to put our own spin on it.
The first two records we did, we had other people producing the songs and then we would add our parts to it. If we heard some other stuff, I might have a keyboardist come in and add this. This album is the first album that Christine and I created from scratch—every sound you hear on there, we created and did it. This is the first album that has felt like our album, getting out exactly what we're hearing in our head into a sound.
This album in particular is special for that. It's the first one we produced on our own, and it feels like the most authentic and able to blend and create all the sounds we're hearing in our head. What comes out is that mix of all those time periods—the early nineties hip-hop, the alternative throughout the 2000s, the eighties—it's like a mix of all that.
Lawrence: Given the sort of positivity, for lack of a better way to say it, like the healing nature of the music that the two of you make together, I'm curious, Küf, what's your musical DNA? Conscious hip-hop, outside of hip-hop—where do you come from musically?
Küf: Growing up, it was a lot of soul music and gospel. My grandmother was really into gospel. She sang gospel, so I would hear that all the time.
Lawrence: Did you grow up in the church?
Küf: Yep, every Sunday.
Lawrence: Was it a musical church? Was there gospel?
Küf: Yeah, there was. It wasn't a lot and not that tight, but the choir was there.
Lawrence: That's great.
Küf: When I spent time with my father driving, I just always remember hearing soul music. And then my brother—I had an older brother and he would listen to a lot of hip-hop. At the time, I think it was like Kurtis Blow, that era.
Those were like three main influences. Then, once I was in middle school and high school, I veered into the alternative scene, a little bit of punk. I listened to a lot of Dead Milkmen in middle school, and also Red Hot Chili Peppers. In high school, I really got into Tupac. Tupac is one of my favorite, if not my favorite, artists. And then beyond that, it was huge—like The Roots, being in Philly, I was influenced by The Roots, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, Digable Planets, the whole Native Tongues movement. And then on the West Coast, it was like The Pharcyde and that whole movement.
Lawrence: Yeah, it's really—I don't know if it's an age thing or what, but it's really hard to escape that era of hip-hop. It was just so musical. The lyrical content was so diverse and rich.
Küf: No, it really is. It really is.
Lawrence: I think I'm going to badly paraphrase you, Christine, so please feel free to correct me here. But my understanding is that you saw Küf play live and that was sort of your first "wow" moment. The line was something like it made you realize you wanted to—he had something or he had a skill or a talent that you were really drawn to that you wanted to be part of. What did you see? I mean, other than, you know, he's a handsome guy. Let's put that aside.
Christine: Well, first of all, the lyrics were super just motivating and vibrant. At that time, every single day, all my car rides were filled with trying to find songs that I could play in music therapy sessions. So my ear was just listening to lyrics all the time. I had never heard somebody live that I could use all those songs for the place that I was working in.
I needed to find music that was appropriate for the kids but also that was liked by the adults—that could cross any age. So I just was wowed by hearing this live right in front of my face. I had never heard anything like it before. And then on top of that, he had two keyboardists, one playing keys and bass, and one playing lead guitar. They were looking at each other playing. Then there was a flute player sitting in.
So as a harpist and an improviser in that world, I was just like—the lyrics, and then he has all these different musicians sitting in that were solidly listening to each other. It just was like a dream to me. Also interesting that at that moment, I never said anything to him that day. I literally just said to my best friend, "Wow, if I was ever in a band, I would want to be in something like that." And then I just let it go.
Lawrence: I want to come back to what happened next, but I have a couple other questions along the lines of the live performance. We'll link to some of the videos that are online from the show notes, but one of the things that struck me was that I've never really seen anybody dance with a harp, and I really got that feeling while you were playing, even though you're seated, there's an element of dance going on, you know?
Küf: Yeah, yes, yeah.
Christine: Yeah, sometimes I watch videos back and I'm like...
Lawrence: Oh, I don't say that to make you self-conscious. No, no, no, there's a joy. There's a joy. You both show a lot of joy in what you're doing. You're smiling while you're singing.
Küf: Yeah, that's a part of the show that I love because, you know, honestly, we play a good amount of places where it's a sit-down audience. Theaters and stuff. So I don't always necessarily get that energy from the crowd. So if I'm in a place where I'm like, man, I need some energy—when you bounce off each other, I see her enjoying herself and moving. And it helps us out.
Lawrence: Yeah, I can imagine that. I can imagine that. Could you talk to me a little bit about sort of the evolution of your live show? Like, how did you arrive at it? Was it birthed, fully formed? Was there experimentation?
Küf: So, yeah, it's grown a lot over the years. I guess because those first few years we were figuring it out. Sound wise. Presence wise, the first show we did was just acoustic, just harp and our vocals.
We did three songs and that went over really well. So we did that for maybe one or two shows and then we wanted to have movement and be able to perform in a place where it's not just acoustic. So we started adding our instrumentals and for the first few years it was Christine having the computer next to her and just hitting start when we started and then pausing it in between and stuff.
And that went on for years. And then touring and doing more shows, it became, sometimes for sound people, it's not a typical setup, a harp and beats. A lot of times the sound people would see the live instrument and think that that's the main sound. So the harp would be loud and the beat would be like, you know, you couldn't feel the beat.
And even though you tell them to change and work with it, it just got to a point where we're like, we have to take this into our own hands because you only get one chance to make a first impression. And if we felt like the show went over well, but we knew that's not what we wanted to present. I ended up getting like a small mixing board and bringing all the sounds in there and controlling our sounds on our own.
And then just send out two plugs to the sound people so they have overall sound. They can make it louder or smaller, but I control how loud her harp is, how loud the beat is, how loud our vocals are, put a little reverb here, take a little bass out of my voice. So we have complete control now, and that's been the most comfortable and easiest representation for us.
And I feel like it's helped us put on an actual show, create a vibe, and we have visuals with us now. Each show we have visuals behind us. So it's all incorporated in and presenting a live show rather than just being like going off of performing and stopping and going. It's more fluid now, more comfortable and consistent.
Lawrence: That's interesting. I appreciate you giving me that context because there was a—I don't remember which one it was, but I was watching one of the videos online and I was really struck by the mix and how strong the beats were. There was actually a moment where I was like, I can't, like, this doesn't make sense, it sounds too good almost for like a live thing. And it was really mixed well. And the beats were strong, but the harp was very quiet, like crisp and clear in its parts. So it's really interesting to see that the two of you felt the need to like just stop being at the mercy of somebody else's mix.
I think maybe this is for Christine, although if either of you have perspective on this, I don't want to glance over a word that you've used a few times because I want to make sure the audience knows what it means. Could you talk about as a practice, what is music therapy?
Christine: Hmm.
Küf: Good question.
Christine: For a short definition, music therapy is using music to meet non-musical goals. So it really can be used in a lot of different spaces. Some of the spaces you might see is autistic support classrooms, emotional support classrooms, all the way to hospice, also in psych centers like alcohol and addiction rehabs.
So really music therapy is using music as a tool to work on some kind of life goal. That is really broad, but it can then be crafted in many different spaces. And usually a music therapist will kind of have a niche in a spot and then they really flourish in learning that population in that area and really dive into that one area so that you could see music therapy in many different ways.
Lawrence: Did you have a specialty?
Christine: Yes, I worked mainly with children and adults with autism. I worked in different schools, different group homes, and a private practice called Music Works outside of Philadelphia. And a little bit in geriatrics as well. That was my avenue, which is much different than what I'm doing now.
Lawrence: Maybe, maybe. I guess one other follow-up question in that regard, though, is what's the principle at work there? Is the idea that music is a way into people or a way out for people to connect and communicate when they don't have necessarily other tools at their disposal?
Christine: Yeah, like, we notice the same kind of thing happens sometimes through performance, but there's a special magic that happens in a musical experience that I've found over the years. There's this trust, there's this build that happens without even saying anything, and therefore it becomes easier to share experiences. It seems to cut time in half. If we were having conversations about stories, it might take a long time to get to something that was deeper or something that's hard to share.
But if we have this mutual music connection and there's something else that references it just like if you have a lyric in a song and someone can say, "Well, I actually felt like this artist sharing this lyric and this is my story."
Lawrence: Oh, interesting.
Christine: That kind of happens faster when you have that third thing in the triangle because there's something else to reference. And there's just a deeper trust that happens quicker. And also a reference point that helps people explain things comparing to the music that they hear.
Lawrence: Yeah, one of the things that obviously stands out is the way you open shows with sort of the mantra and the centering exercise.
Küf: Yep.
Lawrence: Küf, since you're the one speaking the words, where did the impetus to do that come from? And what's the importance of that for you?
Küf: The original idea came from, so at a certain point we were playing a lot of yoga classes and sometimes closing a yoga class, they'll have this thing. Is it...?
Christine: Savasana.
Lawrence: Yeah, like the yogi, the sleep. Yeah.
Küf: And then there'll be saying some things to take you out of the class. And that always felt like a really calm and grounding space. And with us being on the road so much, like sometimes we just jump into shows and it's just moving.
So as much as it's for the audience as well, it's a moment for us to just breathe before we jump into the set and just set a mood for everyone. And also it's great for dialing in on the sound before the actual show starts. So it's like a mix of a lot of things, but the main thing it is like grounding in a moment to just relax before jumping into the show.
Lawrence: What do you observe in the audience from the stage or from the perspective of the performer? Do you see that moment that you're taking manifest for the crowd in any specific way?
Küf: For sure. Even if I don't see it, there's always a handful of people after the show that specifically say, "Hey, I really appreciated that moment in the beginning."
And that's pretty consistent. So even if I don't see it at times after the show, it's relayed to me that it was appreciated. So if we're like in a bar or somewhere that's pretty chaotic, I'm like, "Oh, do you think maybe we shouldn't do it? Let's just jump in and get it." And she's like, "Nah, it doesn't matter." And it always ends up being a thing, but sometimes just like in a bar, it's kind of like people are talking and it's loud and all this. And I'm like, in my head, they're not trying to hear this. Like, they just want to hear the boom, boom, bap, but it grounds us and it feels good.
Lawrence: It reminds me in a way of what Bob Marley and the Wailers used to do, they would open the show with traditional Rasta drumming, with Nyabinghi drumming.
Christine: Uh, yeah.
Lawrence: You know, they were playing arenas. I would have to imagine that to a certain segment of the audience, it came and went. And whatever it was, I'm sure everybody had their own experience of it, but I would think the intention was about setting the sacred space, right? Now is the time where we're going to do this thing that's very profound.
So you talked about how personal or how important this new record is because it's the first manifestation of the full vision. What's next in terms of the rollout?
Küf: Yeah, so we just released the second single, April 9th, the album comes out and really we just plan to tour the remainder of the year pushing the album, spreading the word. But also like, you know, as artists, as soon as we were—so we finished that album, like a year before it's—we've had it done for a year.
Lawrence: Wow.
Küf: Yeah. So as creatives, like, well, like what's the next thing? So we've already created a lot of new music. So once this album comes out, one of our intentions for this year is to release a lot of music. Pretty much monthly we'll probably just be releasing new music.
Lawrence: That seems to be the thing everybody's counseled to do now, right? It's like smaller projects more frequently just kind of, that's the way platforms want artists to feed them.
Küf: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm still, I think I'll always be an album dude. I love doing album, the process of it and putting it together, the presentation, but also I know the times are changing. So we do have music that's ready and we can put out.
Lawrence: The art that accompanies the single is really beautiful. I mean, talk about creating the sense of like a universe around the music and the art. That's really beautiful.
Küf: Yeah, it is. That's our friend Pecue from Philadelphia. Amazing Philly artist. Most of his stuff is like, he does a lot of underground hip-hop artists, like graffiti style. And he's just tapped into something special, so it's always cool to collaborate with him.
Lawrence: It's really interesting because it feels like what the music is, and I can't say it better than that, but like, it really matches well.
Küf: No, definitely.
Lawrence: Really interesting. In the course of your touring, do you know where you'll be when? Like, will you be out here in the Pacific Northwest? I'm just outside of Seattle, and I would love to see the show.
Küf: Oh, really? We were just, we spent some time out there. We helped it out there. We were on Bainbridge Island for a little while.
Lawrence: Beautiful. Yeah.
Küf: Yeah. We did a residency there.
Lawrence: No kidding.
Küf: Yeah. On um, what's it?
Christine: Bloedel Reserve.
Lawrence: Wow. Yeah. What was that like for you? Tell me about that.
Christine: Yeah, that was extremely magical. We actually, for rotation for the single, we got the video there, but we got to stay there for three weeks and the project, they host creatives, whether it's writers, painters, musicians, and their mission is to have the creative arts bring nature to people. So using creative arts to bring people closer to nature.
So we got to roam the grounds even after hours and live on the grounds for three weeks. And just the amount of time, like there was like a magic there that like the grounds—you know, like all the plants and everything, as well as all the animals knew that at five o'clock, everybody left. So there was just this weird, mysterious energy of like owls would come out, you know, at night you heard coyotes. Yeah. And, in the music video, a bee just landed right on my hand, like, when I put my hand out, and it just, like...
Küf: It definitely felt like we were, like, Alice in Wonderland. It was like a magical, trippy experience.
Lawrence: Wow, what time of year was it?
Küf: When was that?
Christine: Was it August?
Küf: Oh, it was.
Christine: Yep. Yep.
Lawrence: I mean, that time it, you'd be hard pressed to find a more beautiful place in North America that time of year.
Küf: For sure.
Lawrence: It really gets so special that time of year.
Küf: Yeah, it was beautiful. It was. It was. And then we, after that, we did a week in Seattle.
Christine: Yep.
Küf: And just played a few shows there. But yeah, we're aiming to come back out there this year, later in the year.
Lawrence: You remember where in Seattle you played? Do you know what venues?
Küf: The first time around we played the Crocodile.
Christine: Yeah, the Crocodile.
Lawrence: Oh, nice.
Küf: Now, that was with Wax Tailor. And this time we played a, uh, what's that?
Christine: Fairmont.
Lawrence: Oh, the Abbey? Yeah, the Abbey.
Küf: Yeah. Fairmont Abbey. Beautiful. And I forget the other place. It was like, it was Sofar. It was a Sofar Sounds show.
Lawrence: Yeah, it looks like you've done a lot of work with them. What's that about? I'm not too, I mean, I know what they are, but I've never seen some, an artist work with them so many times.
Küf: Yeah, a lot of times when we go to places we haven't played before, or we're somewhere we may have played before, but we have an off day. We usually aim to do a Sofar kind of as a pre-show and to like talk up our show. Because for Sofar events, there's three artists on the bill and each artist has twenty minutes. So it's kind of like a sample of our show.
So we'll go to these places. And the cool thing about Sofar is it's changing now, but usually like they don't announce anything. They have a mailing list that they mail out to, and they're like, "Hey, we have a show going on at this date." And it's kind of like a secret thing. You don't know who the artists are or anything.
Lawrence: So you get listeners who are just like into music.
Küf: Yeah, yeah, well some and sometimes it's like people who are going on first dates or like meeting up or you know, it becomes a thing like that. So it's audiences that may necessarily not have been in the music circle to hear about shows or anything but it's introducing them to new artists and introducing artists to new fans. So we aim to do those pretty often as like a good way to spread the word about the show in that area and connect with people.
Lawrence: That's really interesting. We forget that not all people like live their lives as like, I'm going to go find the cool thing at the club or like, some people just like music as a thing to do, or if they come across it. I can't relate to that, but I understand that. I've heard there's people who don't live their whole life around music.
Küf: It’s hard to imagine, but I think it’s true.
