Isabella Kelly - Kingdom of Mind

Lawrence Peryer: Where are you?

Isabella Kelly: I'm in Los Angeles.

LP: OK. How is it there?

IK: You know, it is – our air quality is not great, but at least we have some warmth. And my mom is based in the Pacific Northwest. She keeps telling me, "I'm so jealous. It's how down there for you all. We have gray clouds." So you know what, there's really – I can't complain, you know.

LP: Let me pause one second and make the dog stop. I'm sorry. [laughs]

IK: No problem.

LP: OK. He stopped himself. That's the first time that's happened, so I want you to know after just about 10 months of doing this podcast, you are the first person that the dog interrupted in real time.

IK: Mine is here as well, so maybe it's just – it gives my dog an out.

LP: So do you get up to the Pacific Northwest at all?

IK: Yes, I do, when it's a little easier to move about. My mom is based on Seattle, and we were rolling out our operations actually for that market before all of this really hit. And had been in and out of Portland a good amount over the last year.

LP: Got you. Yeah, I'm just south of Seattle in a little town called Normandy Park, which is I guess sort of halfway between Seattle and Tacoma, if that means anything to you. And if not, that's OK too.

IK: Yeah, absolutely. I was actually – I was born in Seattle, so first years were there.

LP: OK. Wow.

IK: And my family is still based out there, so it is one home.

LP: Yeah, so in your time in Seattle, I would think you saw it change a lot in terms of being a smaller, quieter city to being a bustling hub that it is now.

IK: Yeah, so I was actually – I was there until I was eight, so for the first few years – and you're right. I think I've been more cognizant of it since I've gotten older and have been in and out of the city and really analyzed the – really analyzed just how much technology and Amazon and Microsoft has really moved in and changed the culture a little bit. But it is – it will always be a home. I grew up most of the time in London, so that's where I was for the formative years that I can really remember.

LP: Wow.

IK: Yeah, so I think between seeing Seattle transform, that has been more an experience from the last decade or so, but with the perspective of kind of being in and out rather than being able to see those changes in real time as a resident.

LP: So tell me a little bit about going from Seattle to London. How did that come about?

IK: It was initially for a year. My family had decided to have an experience out of the country for a year. My brother and I went to an international school in London. It's called the American School in London, but it is similar in that it is a program that is – echoes an American system but taught abroad. And my family really enjoyed the experience and got a lot out of being outside the States. I think for me it was less a choice that I made, but it's something I am extremely grateful to have been able to have experienced at a young age. I think that growing up out there really helped me to understand a lot more than what I would have seen if I had been based in Seattle.

 Just it's really a melting pot, London. You just ride – at least when you can ride the tube, when you see the mixture of peoples in that – you know, just going to and from, it's really – tends to be representative of just how many different perspectives are all in one city. And I think that was really good for me to be exposed to that, and just to be pulled out of the fish tank a little bit and seeing somewhere that was different. And I'm very grateful to have had the opportunity to have that perspective.

LP: Yeah, and at the American School, were you primarily – were you in school with expats, or were they – what was the student body like?

IK: It's a – it was a mixture. Some expats. There's really – most families had their own story for being there, and sometimes the students weren't American at all, but families may have wanted them to have that kind of education or may have been looking towards an American schooling system for college or university. And in it really was – it was a mixture. Some expats like you said. Some military. Some just primarily parents that have taken on positions outside the country temporarily or for longer amount sort of time.

 But I think that the people that I connected most with at the school were – the people that I connected most with at that time weren't necessarily at the school. So I was lucky to grow up playing sports and to have met people that weren't necessarily Americans living in London, but you know, actual Londoners or from different countries that had ended up there. So it definitely – it presented an opportunity to meet people and to I guess get a perspective as to what else is out there beyond the U.S. and to think in those terms.

LP: Yeah. And were you coming back and forth a bit during those years, or was your family pretty much hunkered down in London?

IK: We were – to see family occasionally we'd come back, and I think that's how I got to know Seattle is mostly visits home for the holidays or coming back to see family. But we were based out there. For me, it was nine years before coming to – coming back to the U.S. for university. And that is what brought me out to California. 

LP: Wow. So before we jump back down to California, tell me a little bit about you mentioned you were sort of immersed in sports. And was music a part of your life at that point?

IK: Yes, it very much was. And that was always something that – seeing shows especially was one thing I really valued in living in a big metropolitan city. And I was really lucky to have – my mom was very supportive of that interest. I remember her dropping me off at a venue pretty early, I think maybe even 13, and I wasn't afraid to go alone. And I really just enjoyed – if there was someone I wanted to see, and I just enjoyed the experience. And it wasn't – it didn't necessarily have to be a social event. It didn't have to be with a bunch of people I knew. I – and I've always – I think I felt this, and this is what has helped direct my career is I just felt that kind of moment of stillness in the shows, and that really I think – it became clear that this was something I enjoyed and like was a moment that felt different to the rest of life, you know. Whether that was – at that age, you don't know very much of life yet, but at that age it was school and like I said, sports or family life. 

 But those shows were kind of like a moment of meditation away from it all. And I was lucky to – my mom, being so supportive and not looking at the music as like a vice or a place for trouble. But I think she really understood me and that like it was a place that I could really connect with myself. And I think that made it clear to her that it was something she wanted to encourage, or at least support me in discovering a little bit.

LP: Yeah. Was music important in your household, or did either of your parents have any – did they bring the exposure to music, or was that something you sort of discovered on your own?

IK: My brother really is the musician in our family.

LP: Oh, wow.

IK: Yeah, he is a bassist, and he is currently studying music in university. And he's at U Miami. And I think that – I think actually it was music between my siblings and I that was the bigger influence. I have an older half-sister. I remember her giving me a bunch of records pretty early on, burning them onto iTunes, and just thinking it was the coolest thing to have this database of music that I could explore for myself and kind of – she was four years older, and kind of feeling like it was something that could bring us closer to each other. And with my brother, once he got a little – he's four years younger, so once he got a little older, it was really special to be able to share some of those live experiences with him. And to go together, and to – yeah, to share in the appreciation for a show.

 So and he still – you know, one thing I really value about our relationship is he shows me new music all the time. And that's something that's really – I make a lot of playlists, so it's nice to be able to make those kind of express or capture feeling through someone else's expression. And so I think that has been a big part of my communication, both with my family and in understanding myself is not necessarily doing so in your own words, but music really does have a way of articulating a feeling and capturing emotion that sometimes you wouldn't be able to articulate for yourself.

 And so for my brother and I, you know, we really enjoy showing each other new music. He plays – I'm really proud of him. He has been very invested in finding opportunities for himself to play. So down in Miami, he plays – well, when things are open he plays bass at a gospel church, and he will do local gigs throughout Miami area for restaurants or cafes. But as he's gotten older, I've been really impressed by how he has gone after these opportunities and found them for himself. And I think that comes from just a love of expressing himself in that way. And with bassists, I think you see a lot of the time their personality is sort of reflective in the instrument. So it's not – and I think that's very true with him, that he's not necessarily the center of attention in the room, but he has a steadiness that is sort of the heartbeat of our family. And that really comes through. And he says that his happiest moments are when he's playing.

 And I think that's a sentiment I hear from a lot of artists is that they can truly feel like themselves when they're able to play or to practice their craft. And it's not work, or it's not a profession. But instead it's just kind of an extension of themselves.

LP: Sure. So why California?

IK: For – yeah, for California, I guess to contextualize things, in looking back at that period in time, I wouldn't say that I knew being in live music was going to be a career, necessarily, or producing wasn't necessarily going to be a career. I didn't really know that it was an option as a career path. So I had moved to California out of interest for a school. I went to a college called Claremont McKenna College. It's just east of Los Angeles in the L.A. area. Small liberal arts school. And that had been, having gotten in there and thinking about higher education had been what had brought me out to California.

 And I'm so grateful that the situation with having been interested in that school aligned in that way because I really do think that being in California and being in proximity to Los Angeles helped to make it clear that they're – this entertainment is an industry, and it's a thriving one. And it really made it possible, by being out here, to explore that and to figure out where I may fall within that business.

LP: And so you come from London. You come to a small liberal arts school outside of Los Angeles. And what's the first notion? Like how do you get sucked into producing events?

IK: It was pretty early. So it – I was there as a freshman, 18, and I – one of my first thoughts was I want to go to shows in L.A. And that's easier to do, that's accessible. For where we were, there's the Metrolink. The train went right away. But pretty quickly that also – it became clear the barriers to entry there. You're driving. You're going to either Santa Ana or into Hollywood. You're paying for parking. And by a few months into the schoolyear, my thinking was we're so close to Los Angeles, can we bring artists here. And they don't necessarily have to be the biggest touring artist, but colleges are a great place for a developing act to find exposure, and to tap into a demographic that would really understand their sound and help them in building that core fanbase.

 So a few months into that first year at school, I started a club on the campus to book live events to be hosted at the college. And that was definitely – I didn't necessarily know what I was doing at all. I just knew that it would be great on someone else's budget to be able to bring the shows to the campus. And luckily, the college system – the college I went to was very supportive of clubs and student initiative. And they had some faith, and so that really was the intro to the booking process. And to understanding kind of the ins and outs of what it means to produce something that's a live music experience, even on a very small scale. And that it was at the college, and private, and it was only for the students.

 It was a great intro to understanding the systems and the expectations, having to advance these shows being – be point of contact, understanding, seeing the contracts come through, looking at deal structures, coming to understand where private bookings like that sit for artists, definitely spending too much on talent. And then learning through that process, and also getting to know people in the space. There are still some agents that answered my email as a college student that I'm still in contact with. And I really do remember those that had the patience to break down what needed to be done. And I'm very grateful to those people for taking the time to see that I was a kid that was genuinely interested and wanted to do more of this kind of work. 

 And it's in context of the college experience, I feel like some of those initiatives taught me the most rather than necessarily the work and the classroom. So and I think that that has been a common theme in the just – the learning by doing, and kind of jumping into these things are following my bliss. And trusting in that to understand where to invest time, and what to pursue. And so often that bliss has led to music experience.

LP: Yeah. Well, I know this probably seems very organic to you, and at the risk of sort of demystifying it or making it mundane, I'd have to ask – it's a big leap to go from a fan in the audience to somebody who wants to go to more shows, to actually having the idea and the chutzpah to say, "Well, I'll just bring the show to us." And so let's just accept for a minute the exceptionalism there of doing that. What – you have this notion. What did you do? Who did you call? How did you know how to connect with the music industry?

IK: I think – well, luckily, the social networks were very much alive when I was in college. So I think I was spoiled in that respect in that you go into Facebook, you look up the artist you're interested in, you go to their info, and right there listed is the agency info, or the name of their agent, or some level of contact there. That was one thing that definitely – in terms of initial reach-out for booking, made things a lot easier for me.

 I think another thing that really helped me was as I was working on these on-campus shows, I was also getting work experiences in L.A., and I was going into the city a few times a week throughout college for different internships. You know, I really – I tried quite a few because I was doing this work in the event production at school, but I still wasn't certain where in the industry I was going to land. So I did some – I did an internship at Warner Brothers Records involving sync licensing. I thought that that might be a path to follow. My major was legal studies in literature in college, so I think I was thinking maybe the legal side could be of interest in that kind of work.

 I interned at a talent agency and really just did a lot of shadowing on the different desks. And that was pretty eye-opening to me to see these different agents, rather than just my perspective on I click send on the email, to be able to seeing it being received, and what that means on the other end, and how that gets processed, and the different roles within the agency world. And I think that what really helped me was just kind of jumping into the experiences. And being willing to reach out. I think that a lot of the time, it's this fear or anxiety around a rejection that you haven't even set yourself up for that can be debilitating. And I think what – you know, what is the risk in sending an email or picking up the phone? That's one thing I really like doing is jumping on – picking up the phone and seeing if you can connect with someone on the other end to speak about a project or to see if there is something there that could lead to an opportunity.

 And I think that's one thing that really helped me in that transition from being in the audience to starting to do the production work was reaching out and working on not taking a rejection or an email that wasn't replied to personally, but looking at that as part of the process. And being lucky enough to have had these work experiences in music where I found people I could ask questions of. And I think that also – that gave me the confidence to start producing outside of the college itself. I started doing warehouse parties in L.A., and I started actually making a little bit of money from these productions.

 And that was really exciting to me was what happens when you try. Sometimes things work out. And less so about the money from the productions, it was that feeling of seeing, OK, all of these people are having this experience because of a – because reached out, or because I sent that email, or because I kind of got the ball moving on an idea, and I let it live in – outside my head. And now we're here in this moment.

 And I think that in motivating me to continue to reach out, or to take that risk and at least asking the question were those movements when I got to see other people enjoy or that knowledge knowing that you put – you create this framework for experience, and it is the audience that colors it in. And they're all going to color it in a different way. But as a producer, the responsibility is to create the most reliable framework to anticipate what is going to make the experience the best that it could be. And to trust in your artists and in your audience and your team, to then bring that to life. And no one's experience is going to be the same, but it's worth it. It's always worth it when you know you've created these moments that have really unlimited potential for people and can help people to connect with themselves and with each other in a way that you don't necessarily get in everyday life.

LP: Yeah. Well, that's a really wonderful articulation of sort of the role or the mandate of the event producer or the visionary for an event. I don't think I've quite heard it said that way, but that makes a lot of sense to me, and it resonates.

 So at what point in your sort of burgeoning career did it become clear to you that this was your lifepath and career path as opposed to something you were doing – I don't know how to say it, to entertain yourself or to create a fun experience for the people in your scene and in your world. Was there a specific gig? Was there a specific moment? Did someone say to you, "Hey, you're good at this"? What made it become your lifepath? 

IK: I think it was taking myself seriously is what differentiated it from being, OK, this is fun, this is something I can do, to instead be – saying this is something that can be the rest of my life. And it was while I was in college that I started my first business, and – which was an event production company. And worked to finish college early to be able to get our first festival off the ground.

 And so I think it was that recognition and that joy for producing that made me take it seriously and made me take myself seriously, and just figure out what is the next iteration of this passion. And it is an iterative process. You don't – like I was saying when I moved from London to California, I didn't have this big master plan. I didn't know that this is where things were going to land. But I – it kind of goes back to following what feels right and what makes you feel most like yourself. And doing this kind of work feels most like kind of where my personality and purpose align. And that has really been a big factor in pushing me towards doing more of it.

 And that move to make things official and create an entity to start this first business was a big step. I think that probably came from – I remember going into the bank after a show with a flower vase of tips from our bar. And I just remember it feeling like this is no longer acceptable to walk into the bank with this loose cash. How does this – how is it possible to make this a little bit more legitimate. [laughs] 

LP: I hope you still have that vase.

IK: It's probably around here somewhere. And that first entity was the way to do so. And I think that's really – that was a turning point too in understanding that producing these events is so much more than just being a producer or organizer. You have to be a business owner, and you have to be a risk manager, and you have to be an accountant, and your insurance, and your taxes and your liability. And all of these contracts and the responsibility you have to your team and your contractors and your vendors and your talent, that you feel that when you have a business that you're doing your work through. 

 And again, my approach was to kind of just go, and that's really what that first festival was, was the first run at it in an official way where tickets were on an official platform, and we booked – it was a two-day event up in Sacramento in March of 2018. And I had been kind of in and out of Sacramento in the few months before that – excuse me, in the year before that, definitely in the few months before that before the show. But the thinking was this was – Sacramento is a market in California where it's a little easier to get the talent you want because you have less competition. And it's a secondary market in that not everyone is focusing on this place, but it's growing. And the culture – some of the music culture there orients around a harder rock sound, metal, some – you have festivals that happen there that are kind of more punk, hard rock.

 And my thinking was what is the – at that time I was still in college. A lot of people were listening to electronic music. A lot of people are still listening to electronic music. But what is that electronic equivalent of that hard rock sound. And the answer to that was dubstep. And dubstep is also a genre that is a little bit – was a little bit less expensive to book and take this first leap on. And it felt like it would be right to learn in a market that wasn't necessarily where I was based. And to tailor our productions to this space, rather than coming in with an idea as to what they need to observe what's already happening, where do kids feel kind of underserved, or where do acts – where have acts just never come through for that sound.

 And so Sacramento was the place for that. And it was a great place to learn. It was that first two-day show took place on a fairgrounds up there, so that was interesting to have to learn how to build a venue rather than just come into one. And I think that production process taught me a lot and brought me professional relationships that I've been able to continue to draw on for other projects.

LP: What role, if any, does fear ever play in your ventures? Or as you – you know, it could be not a small – but it could be in the context of I have to build a venue at a fairground in Sacramento, oh, my goodness, to I'm going to become a full-time producer, to I'm going to take my company now and fold into this larger, established organization. Like do you – is fear a motivator? Is fear something to be acknowledged, managed, minimized? How do you think about that?

IK: That's a great question. Thank you for your asking it. I think that in fear I think that – I think the first step is to recognize it, but to not be a servant to it. And to – I think a lot of the times, the fear that exists is a fear of something that hasn't happened, rather than right now we're in a period where the fear of the live event business being paused has happened. So it kind of does contextualize all other fears that I've had prior in that you don't know what's going to happen. The unexpected can absolutely happen. But if you, at the end of the day, know that you've done your best, and you've put in what you can, and you've really put in the effort, the intention to accomplish what you want to accomplish, then the greatest fear is like not trying, I think, or becoming stagnant, or losing that desire to do something that I love. And I think that all of the other fears, the what-ifs, are really – none of them are as great as my fear of having not tried. 

LP: Yeah, so it's less about trying and not hitting the mark or reaching the ideal, and more about the not trying at all would be the tragedy or would be the real miss.

IK: Yes, it is because you can't iterate if you don't have something to base that process off of. And even if it's a failure, or even if it's an eh, at least it gives you context for what you do next, you know. It's kind of like the Lilypad for the next jump and the next and the next. And you can learn both about what you're working on doing, your process, but also about yourself and your resilience by continuing to try or to give it your best shot. And I try to keep that in mind and really just hold onto the why and why this is important to me, what a great show can make me feel, and the potential in all the good that a great show can make other people feel, and you know, all the good that that can do.

LP: Yeah. As your shows were getting bigger, and as you said earlier, your sort of business was becoming more formalized, were you taking the financial risk? And was that financial risk growing as your business was growing?

IK: Yes. So that was [laughs] absolutely a lesson in why I did not want to be an independent promoter for the long term. And that I felt that pretty early on. And also the live event model has been kind of a crazy one in how financial risk is placed, and I really do anticipate a shift in that to happen as we come back to live events. I guess to contextualize it, a lot of – in the past, there has been a lot of risk that's put on the promoter, and that's guarantees and that's rentals and that's contracts. And I do anticipate that at least being diversified a little bit, especially as everyone goes through so much hardship right now, or at least shared in some respects in terms of guarantees at the very least, or your commitment, your financial commitment to your artists.

 And so – and I became pretty aware with that risk and with the resources being limited, that in order to produce something great, there needed to be a greater partner involved to scale. And luckily, that those – as those realizations, and as that awareness was growing, I started shows at a venue in Sacramento that was Live Nation owned called the Ace of Spades. And they actually – they'd never had a female promoter in their space before. And coincidentally, at that time this initiative was announced through Live Nation called the Women Nation Fund, and it was – and its purpose, it still exists, it's rolling in its application. But the purpose was to really recognize there really aren't that many women in the live event space, and to empower and invest in women in early-stage businesses that are in live events.

 So it had been my venue contacts at the Ace of Spades who had thought of me at that time when that announcement had gone out about the fund, and had sent it along, and I – yeah, I decided try. Put an application forward, you know. What – at worse, you don't get it. And I'm really glad I did because it was that application that opened the doors for greater communication with Live Nation, some relationship building, mentorship, and eventually led to me closing that first business and launching my current company, Kingdom of Mind, in tandem with Live Nation, through having applied to that fund.

 And it really I think also helped me to, again, take myself seriously and live in that and recognize that if I hadn't taken myself seriously, that – who else would have? And I think that's really a lesson, especially to young women, women in entertainment, is that it's important to see yourself as a professional and see yourself as deserving of opportunities when you're putting in the work, and you're looking at yourself as a professional and behaving as such.

LP: Yeah. And insomuch as you're able to or you're comfortable doing so, can you talk a little bit about not the financial nuts and bolts, but how did the – what is the deal relationship? Is it a joint venture? Did you have to shut your old company and start a new one that was a new legal entity? That sort of question, that's Part A is just what's the mechanism. And Part B is what's it look like in practice in terms of you mentioned the mentorship, is there like an internal sponsor that you get paired with, or how does the – how does this relationship with Live Nation manifest in real life?

IK: So that was – working that out was a big part of the process, and took about a year to do so in a way that made sense to me. I knew that I wanted to start fresh, and so it – we ended up structuring things as a joint venture. It was important to me for both of us to be invested in the next steps, and to have some skin in the game. And so that's overall structure.

 In terms of mentorship, I – the great thing about the fund was that the people that had initially interviewed me, the – my later were with me throughout the application process and the formalization. And so I remember being interviewed on I think it was my 23rd birthday by their VP of touring, Lesley Olenik at Live Nation. And she is – now sits on the board for Kingdom of Mind. So she has continued to be a mentor throughout the process, continued to be – it's been really – I feel very lucky to have – been able to have moved from interviewing with her, to working with an office with her, to being able to turn to her professionally. And but I do think that some – I think that the relationship is also what you make it.

 So I've really tried to do a lot of work to get to know people in the company, both I – normally, I would work out of the Beverly Hills office here. And I remember in my first days in going into the office, starting this tab on my phone, where I tried to get the name and the some note around everyone I met basically, just to remember some detail as to what the conversation we had, or where they sit, or what they do. And I think that that person l connection, and that interest in building relationships really helped me in further getting to know the company, and to get a better sense as to how else we could collaborate off paper. Who could help – who I could ask questions of, whether that was insurance or contract review, or back of office services, whatever else. You know, who was there for me through my partner as my team.

LP: Yeah, that's a really interesting model. And so what was happening before mid-March? [laughs]

IK: So we – I was really excited for this fall. We were looking I guess similarly to the idea around Sacramento, the idea had been to launch in a – in a Pacific Northwest market. And I had been in and out of Portland, and the – Live Nation had recently, at the beginning of the year, opened an office there. I had been building a really nice relationship and connection with their team up there. We were --

LP: Is that [Mary Claire]?

IK: Yeah, she's --

LP: -- Yeah, she's great.

IK: Mary Claire has absolutely been a mentor to me throughout this process. And I would say one of my biggest supporters. And also --

LP: -- She's a great one.

IK: She's a great one. She really is. And similarly, in that year when we were figuring out our structure, we were having conversations, and she was – even without knowing what things were going to look like, she was a mentor. And I will forever have respect and gratitude to her for how much she has believed in me, and how that's helped me believe in myself too in what I want to do. So we were looking at that market, and offers were out for the launch, and the real kickoff out there. Everything had been done with the venue, and we were set on our space for a larger production out there. And then yeah, and then things turned, and we've had to just – we've had to wait until the time is right, until it is responsible to move forward with a live event that involves gathering.

LP: Yeah. With that said, do you have events planned, or is it more that you have the plan for the plan when the time is right. Like how are you thinking about a return to action?

IK: Right now it's definitely been – the power of the pivot has been in mind over these last months. And I guess it's in that, I know that this is the work that I want to do in the future. There is, like you said, a plan for the plan regarding Portland. But right now been thinking a lot about producing in general and working on doing different kinds of projects that still involve some of those same transferrable skills. I'm working on an art installation right now at the Hollywood Palladium, and that has been a little bit different in that we are – instead of showcasing art inside the venue, we're working on showcasing it in the – for the public in the exterior windows there. And involving local artists for that.

 That's been a little bit different, and it's still – I would say at the core of what I do is experience building. And these last months have been a lot about figuring out how you build experiences that mean something, that connect people, that resonate without the physical proximity. So one answer to that I guess has been this art project. But I think a lot about evoking feeling and bringing connection. And I think that it's really hard to do that digitally with music. It's really hard to – a live stream is never going to be the same as that expression in reception between artist and audience because it is an exchange. And to have that level of exchange, you do need to have at least some sort of sight of each other.

 So right now has been a time of I think really reflecting on what is possible, working on that, and working on staying in contact with all of those who are in a similar boat and really making sure that everyone that has been a part of my journey, I continue to be a part of theirs as well, especially as we – everyone faces challenging times in this industry.

LP: Yeah. Well, I know our time together is coming to an end. I did want to ask you two other questions. One is I was hoping you could tell me a little bit about the company name. That's my first question. The second is if you could tell me a little bit about the podcast you launched.

IK: Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of name, Kingdom of Mind, it's all based around the belief that we each have a core purpose, and there's a kingdom that is inside each of us. And that might not necessarily be a career, but it could be just something you love, or your art or being a family member. And I do think that music-based experiences bring us closer to what that is. And the mission is really to unite people in those shared experiences and bring people closer to their selves pretty much one show at a time. So that's a – yeah, that's why it's called Kingdom of Mind, or KOM.

 And the podcast I've been working on recently has been a buildout of that concept and an opportunity to speak – to speak to that, and to speak with other people who are in the entertainment and music industry sectors that are building their – are building out their kingdoms. And I've been lucky to have some great conversations, and to talk with other professionals in this space about why they do what they do. And how they've been able to make what they love their careers. And so we really, on the podcast, dive into the journey, and then the vision as to what they're building, and what it means to them.

LP: That's terrific. Well, we'll make sure that we point people to do that in the episode notes when this goes live. So thanks for explaining what that's all about. And thank you for spending some time with me this afternoon. I really appreciate it. It was great to talk with you.

IK: Thank you, [Lawrence]. You too. I --

LP: -- Please stay well.

IK: You too. Take care of yourself. I appreciate your time. It was really a pleasure to be on the other side of this, and to explore these – this journey with you.

LP: Thank you. I'll follow-up with you soon when we have the links, and in the meantime, stay well.

IK: Sounds good. You too. Take care.